Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Ruminate]

RDM was a melee fighter, but it was never a frontline fighter because it lacked the survivability.

They're frontline mages, not melee fighters. Non-MMO RDM meleed to conserve MP, not because their melee was good. FFXI RDMs were given the Mystic Knight's Spellblade, along with Refresh and Convert, because no one wanted RDM in groups. FFXI Mystic Knights were turned into tanks because Square shot themselves in the foot by giving Spellblade to RDM.

[Eremor]

Yeah they added on En-spells to RDM in XI, but you have to admit it fits the job, sword wielding magic user, why wouldn't they buff their weapon with magic? The problem with Mystic Knight is that it only does the one thing, it's not rounded out enough for a MMO job, in XI they gave it abilities that RDM already had (bar-spells and phalanx and some other enhancing magic) in order to round it out. As far as I'm concerned Rune Fencer was only made to appease RDM melee pushers without having to change RDM at all, but all they did was piss them off.

But that was XI and this is XIV, the two jobs certainly are similar and I wouldn't mind them both stemming from a single class, with RDM being more support focused and Mystic Knight being tank focused.

[Kitru]

There is also still the possibility of it being added as an "advanced" job (combining whm/blm), but so far that has only been confirmed as something they are considering.

I still find the idea of an "advanced job" somewhat dubious, mainly because it either compounds the number of potential end options or implies that you're going to have *very* few real combinations. I also begs the question of how they would work, given that the existing jobs provide 5 abilities, and that's it, right now.

[Deedsie]

I'd prefer Red Mage to be primarily DPS focused with supoprtive abilities, really.

[Ruminate]

Yeah they added on En-spells to RDM in XI, but you have to admit it fits the job, sword wielding magic user, why wouldn't they buff their weapon with magic? The problem with Mystic Knight is that it only does the one thing, it's not rounded out enough for a MMO job, in XI they gave it abilities that RDM already had (bar-spells and phalanx and some other enhancing magic) in order to round it out. As far as I'm concerned Rune Fencer was only made to appease RDM melee pushers without having to change RDM at all, but all they did was piss them off.

But that was XI and this is XIV, the two jobs certainly are similar and I wouldn't mind them both stemming from a single class, with RDM being more support focused and Mystic Knight being tank focused.

Mystic Knights dealt very high damage. Thats rounded enough for an MMO class. Its not rounded enough for a tanking role, but thats because they were never great at survival to begin with.

Mystic knights and RDMs aren't really all that similar aside from the fact that they wield swords and cast magic-like effects. In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast, because they primarily cast magic. In most FF, the Mystic Knight's signature skill is Spellblade, because they primarily swing their weapon.

[Meta-Flare]

This is what I would like.

Red Mage would be dps support. I like the idea of mixing jobs, mainly cuz I'm not sure this could come from a class we already have. Or they could just add a one handed sword user base class (why isn't there already one?) and have red Mage be the job.
Add a class called thief and have ninja be the job. These would be dps.

tank would be samurai and be similar to auron in ffx and the class in ffx2.

Dark knight would be a melee dps as well. I would stem off of dragoon maybe since they use scythes. Unless they use a two handed great sword like in ffx2.

But most of all I want a gun class. Let it be the musketeer that uses the guns that merlwyb has and the job would be gunslinger and they would use dual magitek pistols.

The reason I say this is cuz as of right now there is only one disciple of war ranged option. All other types have two to pick from. Two tanks, two ranged disciple of magic dps, two melee disciple of war, and two DoM healers.

Ps. I really want a DoW healer like dancer maybe since alchemist can't be it. Unless they make engineer a healer that uses magitek gadgets or something.

[Kitru]

In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast, because they primarily cast magic.

Well, the reason that they *need* something as strong as doublecast is because they have an, effectively, terrible spell list. To be able to compete with the other casters, they need some advantage beyond just having access to the weakest spells of both schools. Doublecast exists less as an extension/definition of their being a raw caster than as the ability for them to actually be *effective* when they choose to cast. It allows them to either throw out damage like an offensive caster, at a steep cost thanks to effectively doubling the mp cost, heal like a defensive caster, at a similarly steep cost, or toss out damage and healing in the same turn, which is something unique to them. They get to be effective by having a better economy of action to make up for lower potency actions.

I also wouldn't say that they primarily cast magic either. They've always used swords and have always dealt a fair deal of their damage through melee. They're JoATs. Saying that they're primarily casters when they're always equally effective at stabbing things, healing allies, and exploding enemies is a bit disingenuous. They're less effective at any of those aspects as any of the specialist classes, but they do all of them equally well.

It's because of this that it's most likely that they'll end up being DPS: melee and offensive magic sync up effectively for DPS, and defensive magic can easily be redone as support abilities. The economy of action that Doublecast provides could either be accomplished by having spells cast via melee attacks (i.e. action free casts) or having a CD that doubles spell speed for a short while. I would expect for the various en-element spells to be baseline for the class and stuff like Doublecast to be part of the Red Mage proper.

[Duelle]

Mystic Knights dealt very high damage. Thats rounded enough for an MMO class. Its not rounded enough for a tanking role, but thats because they were never great at survival to begin with.

魔法剣士/Mystic Knight was basically a black mage that cast their nukes through a sword; that was it. They were so one-dimensional that the concept was converted to sword enchanting and given to RDM in FFXI, which looking at spellswords and sword&magic archetypes, it makes sense. It's testimony to hybridity, not to mention it looks awesome as hell.

In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast

Building RDM around double cast would be pointless because then you're obviously making up for a weak spell list. Some form of it may be acceptable (like my suggested "Double" ability), but even then I can admit you'd have PvP concerns over it (which should always be kept in mind because PvP is a part of this game).

The main thing about RDM in an MMORPG is that the melee and magic sides of the job cannot be treated separately like in the console FFs. The abilities have to mesh and combine into a greater whole in order to be a job that can function acceptably within the trinity. I've harped on this before, but outside of the console FF's, RDM's defining traits should be how they apply the stuff they borrowed from Fighter, Black Mage and White Mage. A BLM may use Fire to blow up a door into a room, where a RDM may use their weaker version of Fire to melt the lock. A Fighter can hit someone for really high physical damage, whereas a RDM may ensorcel their sword so that it does the expected inferior physical damage but also make up the difference through the damage by Enfire.

[Ruminate]

RDM melee damage was terrible, and their magic damage was even worse, even with Double Cast. Their melee damage outscales their magic damage because RDM are barred from obtaining the best magic, but not barred from wearing the best equipment. In FFV, I distinctly remember Dancers dealing more damage in general than RDM. Even the FFV BRD had its damage role niche by demolishing undead and dragons.

To be able to compete at all, non-MMO RDM were relegated to a role that utilized spells that didn't scale with stats. In other words, buffing and debuffs. Doublecast allowed them to throw out more buffs and debuffs sooner.

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look. Other people, like myself, hated how the FFXI RDM turned out because their only support ability of any value was Refresh, turning them into nothing more than Refresh bots.

[Duelle]

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look.

I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs. You know, "look at this awesome job that uses swords and light armor and has access to more magic than a standard fighter!", followed by "guess what? you're at level cap and the stuff that drew you to the job is no longer valid! You're now refresh/haste/cure bot. Learn to like it or reroll LOL". Paladins in WoW were cheated the same way, which is why I get a little touchy on the subject of hybrids and RDM.