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  1. #11
    Player
    TouchandFeel's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Character
    Vespereaux Vaillantes
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 91
    @ Dhex

    I too would love to see more of a push for real support classes that add that much needed "little extra something" to parties and I could totally get behind that for Red Mages, but as it is right now Support doesn't have its own classification and gets just lumped in with DPS which I personally am not a fan of.

    I've personally been a fan of the sort of wild-card classes in FF as well as games in general.
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player
    Ruminate's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    157
    Character
    Demi Fiend
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
    Not really. If they're a melee support DPS job, which I would expect, the black magic and melee would be the effects of the attacks and the support functionality would be the equivalent of the white magic. They will, in all likelihood, be something like a melee Bard: TP DPS with 2-3 job abilities that allow them to provide some support and a few attacks that consume MP.

    It's important to remember that FFXIV doesn't use the standard mechanical definitions of the classes (Red Mage always had a fuzzy mechanical definition anyways, since it was just "white + black magic" rather than anything truly unique). PLD, mechanically, was always a very durable melee/white magic class, but our PLD doesn't have any non-token white magic capabilities. The *theme* is present, but the previous mechanical construct isn't. Hell, Black Mages used to be the owners of most of the spells that SUM uses but those previous constructs were abandoned to give Summoners *something*.

    The *theme* of Red Mage has always been a melee/magic hybrid. It was slightly more durable than the standard mage without ever really being as durable as a "true" melee, not to mention that it pretty much always lacked the strong support capabilities of a white mage and never had appreciable avoidance capabilities (that was always ninja/thief/monk). Honestly, for an avoidance/light armored tank, it would be a lot more likely to see Ninja than Red Mage. It's interesting to think up ways for Red Mage to be a tank class, but it's a stretch to make it a tank rather than the more easily approachable DPS/support construct.
    The only "Knight"(localized as Paladin) in non-remake, non-MMO FF games that had white magic was in FF4. In every other FF, "Knights" were frontline fighters with high damage. Infact, "Knights" were the class upgrade to Warriors in the original FF1.

    The RDM was a frontline fighter that could cast black and white magic. If the class was a frontline fighter in the previous FF, then they were durable. The fact that they could cast Cure, Regen, Slow, Stop, Protect, Shell, etc. actually gave them an edge in survivability over other frontline fighters.
    (0)
    Last edited by Ruminate; 09-21-2013 at 09:02 AM.

  3. #13
    Player
    Stormsoul's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    103
    Character
    Still Sparrow
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 70
    mmm, i dunno. if we're going to do something unexpected with FF classes and tanking i'd rather see Blue Mage done as a tank, rather than RDM. BLU at least has a history of being all about finding monsters with rare abilities, and having them melt your face off to learn them -- that's something you could build on for a tank class. RDM imo should be a melee DPS with a trait that lets them instacast spells (or dualcast them!) after they stack up a buff or on a random proc. RDM has never had the heaviest armor or shields, and has never really been known for evading or parrying stuff, so i don't really feel it has much to go on as a tank job.

    i think the next tank we'll see would probably be SAM (ff5's SAM was pretty tanky with Shirahadori parrying a ton of hits for free). i can't see DRK being a tank as it's always been about sacrificing your HP to deal more damage. NIN could go either way i guess, one one hand it's always been a beast at evading hits, but on the other hand it's intended role has always been damage.
    (3)
    Last edited by Stormsoul; 09-21-2013 at 09:19 AM.

  4. #14
    Player
    Dhex's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    1,006
    Character
    Jadus Salaheem
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by TouchandFeel View Post
    @ Dhex

    I too would love to see more of a push for real support classes that add that much needed "little extra something" to parties and I could totally get behind that for Red Mages, but as it is right now Support doesn't have its own classification and gets just lumped in with DPS which I personally am not a fan of.

    I've personally been a fan of the sort of wild-card classes in FF as well as games in general.
    RDM needs to be utility, easily swapping from add tank to magic DPS debuffer, and Physical DPS - never ever support not after what happened in FFXI. I'd rage if they did make RDM fall into support.
    (2)

  5. #15
    Player
    Kirea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    27
    Character
    Kelenae Sharan
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 53
    rdm...isn't really a sensible choice for a tank, especially if you follow them properly (not the butchering done in xi) rdm are a mix of white and black magic skills this provides them to fill a dual role as both dps and healer, but not a primary in either, I think rdm would be a good choice for major debuffs overall to make up for a lack of dps/healing
    (1)

  6. #16
    Player
    TouchandFeel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
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    1,835
    Character
    Vespereaux Vaillantes
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhex View Post
    RDM needs to be utility, easily swapping from add tank to magic DPS debuffer, and Physical DPS - never ever support not after what happened in FFXI. I'd rage if they did make RDM fall into support.
    I sort of lumped utility and support into one group, but what you are suggesting is still inline with what I could see Red Mages fit into, being that other "little something extra" class.

    Again the problem is what would they be classified as in the game? Tank because they can off-tank really well? DPS because they can DPS too? Support and Utility aren't currently a classification in the game and as I stated earlier if these were their own classification in the game I would completely support Red Mage being those, but since they aren't I tried to fit Red Mage into a classification that exists and could use a little more variety.
    The whole support/utility class worked better in FFXI but FFXIV is very "Holy Trinity" role based and it seems that for a class to work in the game it has to be geared more towards one of those roles.

    So to expound upon my Red Mage as a tank idea and show its more utility bent, here is what I was thinking.

    Weapon would be a Rapier/Dueling Sword style of weapon with a Shield in the off-hand for added blocking defense.

    They would essentially be able to swap roles between Main Tank and Off-Tank/DPS.

    Main-Tank would rely on Magic Wards and buffs that the Red Mage would place on themselves that would help absorb and mitigate damage of different types such as (physical, elemental, etc.) and they would switch between the different wards depending on what the situation demands.

    Off-Tank/DPS would rely on Debuffing enemies so that they take more damage from the parties attacks as well as buffs that increase the Red Mages damage output.

    The Red Mage would only be able to be in one of these modes at a time, similar to PLD switching between Sword and Shield Oath.

    All of their abilities should rely on MP more than TP to give them more of a mage feel.

    Also, as I brought up earlier, it might be interesting if they had an ability that switched around MP and HP as a way to add another dimension of resource management during a fight.
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player
    TouchandFeel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
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    1,835
    Character
    Vespereaux Vaillantes
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirea View Post
    rdm...isn't really a sensible choice for a tank, especially if you follow them properly (not the butchering done in xi) rdm are a mix of white and black magic skills this provides them to fill a dual role as both dps and healer, but not a primary in either, I think rdm would be a good choice for major debuffs overall to make up for a lack of dps/healing
    I have been "following" them as I have been playing the FF series since the very first one on NES.
    I've always really liked Red Mages in the series, but I don't feel that a dual role style of class really works well with a Holy Trinity Role based MMO, hence why I tried to adjust what Red Mages have been in previous single-player iterations of the series into something that would work for this game while providing a very different take on a role that could use more variation.
    (1)

  8. #18
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    TL;DR: Red Mage = sword&magic DPS. Mystic Knight = Tank

    ----------------------

    RDM doesn't fit the tank archetype. Spellswords/sword&magic never really does. RDM would be better served as DPS with utility (off-heals, maybe 1 range nuke, some debuffs). My alternative is, assuming Fencer would parent RDM, is having Mystic Knight sprout from Fencer as a tank job.

    Class

    Fencer: Considered outliers among their peers in the art of the sword, fencers utilize a fighting style developed around fluid movement and quick attacks. Where gladiators and marauders bring pure strength to the fray, these shifty combatants prefer to wear their targets down and win battles by attrition, waiting for the opportune time to close in for the coup de grace.

    Originally a recreational combat style of the Ishgardian nobility, the fencing repertoire has expanded as more individuals took up the rapier, foil and epee. Crippling techniques and blade enchantments eventually became common among practitioners, allowing the fencer to close the gap with their brute force-focused counterparts that finesse alone cannot fill.

    Concept: Front row fighter that can cripple opponents with sword techniques. They are also adept at bypassing their enemies' defenses by utilizing brands; sword enchantments that deal magical damage in addition to the blade's own damage.

    Mechanics: Fencer can only keep one brand active, and is limited to two elements (Thunder, Earth). The activated brand reduces the Fencer's max MP by 15% until cancelled.

    Sample Abilities
    Earth Brand: Toggle effect. Your auto-attacks deal additional earth damage. Increases your damage resistance by 2% and your chance to parry an attack by 5%.
    Thunder Brand: Toggle effect. Your auto-attacks deal additional lightning damage and ignore up to 10% of your target's armor.
    Lunge: Delivers a melee attack.
    Reprise: Delivers a melee attack. Can only be used if an attack misses.
    Flick: Delivers a melee attack. Combo => Lunge: Slows target enemy's movement by 50% for 15 seconds
    Sting: Delivers a melee attack with a poisoned blade. Poisons target enemy.
    Reveal: Delivers a physical attack that reduces target enemy's defense by 4%.

    Notes:
    - As always, this is a general guidelines. Fencer should obviously be more offense-oriented but I can't really come up with weapon skill names for it.
    - The point of brands is to create a reasonable price to pay for the extra damage. Not quite sure how brand damage should scale.
    - The enfeebling attacks like the snare from combo Flick, Sting and Reveal are merely samples and not all the class should get.
    - As far as why I limited the class to two elements...well, you'll see in a bit.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Job

    Red Mage: Armed with enchanted rapiers and combat-caster instincts, the members of Ishgard's Order of the Crimson Blade are as recognized within the city walls as the dragoons are recognized outside its borders. Employing refined fencing skills and a slew of combat spells, these garish "magic fencers" have taken their chosen art to new levels, proudly serving as capable front line combatants with more than just a few tricks up their sleeves.

    Where a traditional mage would prefer the safety of range, the red mage's talents shine in the thick of battle, swiftly crippling enemies with their blade before taking them out of the fight with a burst of magic or heal wounded allies. It is this versatility that has made them known not only for their ability to handle any situation, but to also bring things to a resolution.

    Concept: Front row fighter-mage with some extra tricks and toys to bring into battle. While dealing less damage than a fencer, the Red Mage has other ways to make up for the lack of physical damage through abilities like Magic Sword and their spells.

    Mechanics: Equipping the RDM crystal reduces the MP reduction from brands by 5%. Brand effects enhance weapon skills as well as auto attacks. Auto attacks have a chance to grant the buff Combat Casting. Sting's poison effect increases damage taken by the mob from magic for its duration (including spells and Magic Sword).

    Sample Abilities
    Fire Brand: Toggle effect. Your attacks deal additional fire damage and place the debuff "Burn" on your enemy.
    __Burn: Deals damage on target enemy over 15 seconds. Can stack to 3 stacks and is refreshed by all attacks while Fire Brand is active. Increases damage taken by enemy from your attacks by 5% per stack.
    Double: Doubles the potency, cost, and cooldown of the next weaponskill or spell.
    Stun: Incapacitate target enemy for up to 4 seconds.
    Chant: 4 second cast time. Sacrifice HP to restore twice the amount sacrificed to an ally.
    Magic Sword: 4 second cast time. Casts an elemental spell on target enemy based on the most recent brand activated.
    Combat Casting: Passive trait inherent to RDM soul crystal. Your auto-attacks have a 25% chance to grant you Combat Casting, allowing your next Chant or Magic Sword to be instant cast.

    Notes:
    - Part of why RDM is only getting Fire Brand is because I don't want to give room for "brand-twisting". As in "Start in Fire Brand, do WS then cancel Fire Brand and activate Lightning Brand then do two WS then Switch back to Fire Brand" etc.
    - The idea behind Combat Casting affecting only Chant and Magic Sword is to give RDM the choice in combat whether to use their procs to add to their DPS or if instead they should use it to help offheal if things get ugly.
    - The prohibitive 4-second cast time (outside of Combat Caster procs) on Chant combined with the HP and MP cost should be enough to leave the decision to offheal on the RDM themselves instead of causing groups to force it to do the healer's job.
    - Magic Sword follows a similar principle, where using it outside of procs is terribly inefficient and should ideally be reserved for when CC procs. Of course, Magic Sword is also RDM's only real ranged attack, and as such could be used during air phases if those are ever implemented.
    - The RDM soul's effect on Sting and the Burn debuff are meant to encourage the RDM to keep both debuffs on the mob at all times to help maximize their damage.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Job

    Mystic Knight: Though Red Mages embody the ultimate marriage between martial prowess and magic, there are others who bend the concepts behind magical combat to different ends. In the case of the mystic knights, the end is protection of their allies and surviving the onslaught of their enemies.

    Forsaking the lighter side of fencing, these individuals instead ensorcel their blades and now-famous "gants", allowing them to use a very basic, yet effective, level of magic to the benefit of those around them. Though basic, the magic used on the mystic knight's armaments are more than up to the task of protecting their allies and ensuring the enemy does not stray from them.

    Concept: Tank that uses brands and gant enchantments to shield themselves as they keep the attention of their enemies.

    Mechanics: Equipping the MKT crystal allows the player to have a second enchant called a "gant" (glove). While brands still reduce your max MP by 15%, gant enchants reduce your max MP by 5%. Assuming no buffs, your second activated brand will become your gant enchant. You cannot have a brand and gant of the same element. In addition, Reveal's debuff now stacks (maximum of 3 stacks) and increases generated enmity per stack.

    Sample Abilities
    Ice Brand: Your auto-attacks deal additional ice damage and increases enmity generated by all actions by 35%.
    Gant-Lightning: Increases your parry rate by X%
    Gant-Earth: Increases defense by X%.
    Gant-Ice: increases resistance to status effects by X%
    Riposte: Delivers a melee attack that generates additional enmity. Can only be used after you parry or dodge an attack.
    Backhand: Consumes your gant enchant to deliver a melee attack with your offhand that generates high enmity but low damage. Grants an additional effect that depends on the gant enchant you have active:
    * Ice: binds target to the ground
    * Lightning: Knocks target back
    * Earth: Slows target's attack and casting speeds
    Arcane Discharge: Smash your fist into the ground, spending your gant enchant and hitting all enemies within 10 yalms of you with a discharge of magic that deals light damage but high enmity.
    Arcane Shield: Spend your Brand and gant enchants to reduce all damage taken by 75%.

    Notes:
    -I originally wanted Gants to be a separate piece of equipment, but I know the devs have a rule against special equipment that is completely different from what the classes can equip. To illustrate the point with Gants, I would design the MKT AF gloves to reflect this by having the off/left hand be covered by a bulky gauntlet while the main/right hand is wearing a thinner glove to facilitate movement.
    - The way activating brands works with MKT is that the first brand will affect your weapon like normal. The second and all following brands will affect your Gant.
    - In the event GLA is one of MKT's support classes, I would think shield abilities from GLA can be used while a Gant enchant is active.
    - MKT gameplay should ideally involve blending Gant abilities with sword WS.
    (3)
    Last edited by Duelle; 09-21-2013 at 09:19 PM.
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  9. #19
    Player
    TouchandFeel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,835
    Character
    Vespereaux Vaillantes
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 91
    @Duelle

    I am pretty sure the Rune Fencer from FFXI was supposed to be its version of Mystic Knight and that is why I suggested mixing the two to create a tanking Red Mage.

    However, your example of having a Fencer class that can then evolve into either (Tank: Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer) or (DPS w/ Utility: Red Mage) as Jobs I could definitely get behind and would pretty much do what I wanted with having Red Mage as a tank, namely creating a new type of tank that uses magic for defense instead of just heavy armor and that would have a very noticeably different feel to the way they play.

    If they implement it the way you suggested, I'm all for it.

    If they do add in Mystic Knight as a Magi-Tank, I really hope they retouch/improve the "classic" look of them so they don't look so "guy/gal in a big turban", but they should definitely keep the Middle Eastern, more exotic theme, for them.
    (0)
    Last edited by TouchandFeel; 09-22-2013 at 01:55 AM.

  10. #20
    Player
    Zheri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    37
    Character
    Zheri Starcaller
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruminate View Post
    The only "Knight"(localized as Paladin) in non-remake, non-MMO FF games that had white magic was in FF4. In every other FF, "Knights" were frontline fighters with high damage. Infact, "Knights" were the class upgrade to Warriors in the original FF1.

    The RDM was a frontline fighter that could cast black and white magic. If the class was a frontline fighter in the previous FF, then they were durable. The fact that they could cast Cure, Regen, Slow, Stop, Protect, Shell, etc. actually gave them an edge in survivability over other frontline fighters.
    Actually, in the original FF Fighter upgraded to Knight, which could use low level white magic. They were more durable than Master or Ninja, but did a little less damage.
    (1)

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