Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Irenae]

Indeed, I like your idea for a mage tank who can tank Magical damage with ease. Sounds like an awesome idea! And Dark Knight is a Damage Dealer, always has been and doubt that will change. It is a good idea to have somebody who can take the magical damage well as opposed to the traditional tank.

[Gardes]

Yoship seems to really care about and abide by the 'class/role equality with play style to differentiate' thing so I don't think any mage tank advantage or disadvantage in capability is gonna fly, even if we have the pld vs war or any other dps vs dps issue atm. He already streamlined damage types as evidence. Any existing damage 'types' can only boost itself but never have a base advantage from what I can tell. Everything starts from 0 and a player can either buff himself or debuff an enemy but never start at +1 or above, like monks having a starting advantage over other class when fighting bone undeads or dragoons having advantage over flying enemies (correct me if this kind of thing exists in ARR). I think this also already applies in reverse to some degree; we can barely modify our elemental resistances (I've never seen someone say that it's worth it to use those potions) and there's only apocatastasis and traited protect; no monsters have an advantage over players with different jobs or armor types. They're almost all just labels at this point.

So I dont think yoship will ever say "Lets make a tank that is weaker at tanking physical damage compared to other tanks and have him be really good at taking magical damage so some dungeons/fights people would want pld/war, some dungeons/fights people would want this magic tank". Especially when some attacks can be vague and needs testing and checking to find out if it's magical or physical (too much stress, you know?). I can already see him not liking that already, judging from his past answers for questions about elemental wheel being removed. I feel that, at best, if we're going to get any caster tank, is yoship aiming it to have the same tanking ability as the pld and war and have it revolve around magic barriers that works for any type of damage for mitigation. Something like stoneskin and sch shields, except better and for the tank's personal use and maybe a different way of generating enmity (ooh maybe party wide barrier cast that transfers/steals enmity back to the caster tank if a monster hits a party member).

[Gandora]

I just really think its a bad idea because of the Storm Path, Storm eyes, BB combo and MRD class traits. Remember that the game mechanics are tied to the weapons a class is using.

This being said that is why a PLD has acces to Rage of Halone, making RDM or BLU of a GLA30 would give them RoA combo and the class main traits.

If a job such as DRK should be a DD, they would need a new main class to give them a full support in their role, a class that will give priority to STR support traits and things that will enhance the final job, I don't see how MRD could do that at this time let alone GLA.

They would need to make changes in the class mechanics for the job to not end up like SCH & SMN.

[Gardes]

They would need to make changes in the class mechanics for the job to not end up like SCH & SMN.

The game has already done this. WAR modified some skills by adding extra effects to MRD skills. A MRD wouldnt have those wrath effects that are integral to WAR play and the skills to use those wrath points, nor would a second job sprouting from MRD have it.

SCH and SMN also modified base skills and it's not even traited or stanced like WAR did it, iirc. SMN changes carbuncles to egi, SCH changes to fairies. Not only that changed/added the pet skills, it directly changed the ACN's summon skill. They also have different skills using the ACN mechanics of aetherflow in opposing ways.

[Gandora]

The game has already done this. WAR modified some skills by adding extra effects to MRD skills. A MRD wouldnt have those wrath effects that are integral to WAR play and the skills to use those wrath points, nor would a second job sprouting from MRD have it.

SCH and SMN also modified base skills and it's not even traited or stanced like WAR did it, iirc. SMN changes carbuncles to egi, SCH changes to fairies. Not only that changed/added the pet skills, it directly changed the ACN's summon skill. They also have different skills using the ACN mechanics of aetherflow in opposing ways.

What about the stats attribution? Main SMN have little cure because of the INT priority & vice-versa. What good would a full DRK VIT give in case of DPS role? lol

[Gardes]

Main SMN

Exactly.

Plus, they already gated myth gear anyway.

[Exstal]

What about the stats attribution? Main SMN have little cure because of the INT priority & vice-versa. What good would a full DRK VIT give in case of DPS role? lol

Because after becoming the Dark Knight job, they won't be stacking VIT anymore? If you're a DPS, you'll respec. This concern is irrelevant.

[BlueMage]

Just add Rune Fencer / Mystic Knight if you want a sword magic tank. Calling it "Red Mage" will just lead to the same old people moaning and complaining like they did in XI because everyone has a different dumb of idea of what a "true" Red Mage is all about. Is it the hat you want? Just give Rune Knight the hat. They gave Bard the hat too.

[Masenken]

How about this, we're thinking in terms of melee weapons. rdm, mtk, whatever, they're magic classes. The important thing is getting the feel of the class right?

Try this. Fully int based. Whether it actually uses its weapon in a traditional sense is another story, but here's my take. In the space of time a melee fighter swings his weapon, the rdm/mtk slings a spell. In essence, it's a war mage.

This settles the issue with stat distribution. Now you can design all of its abilities around the idea that it's a fast spell slinging monster. This leads me to favor the mystic knight over red mage. I just can't imagine red mage as a front line fighter to begin with... at least not as a tank... rdm, to my memory had always had that Jack of all Trades going, but I feel like making it lean towards a dps role would be good for it. In either case, I like the idea of them soaking up elemental damage, but atm so the bosses even deal a lot of damage? Either way I'm spit balling. Seem sound?

[TouchandFeel]

As the original poster, thought I'd drop in to give my updated thoughts on my originally proposed idea based on what everyone has said.

Originally I had intended the proposed Red Mage tank to be a Red Mage/Rune Fencer or Mystic Knight hybrid.
Mainly I just wanted a different style of tank that was based more off of magic than just being a walking colossus sheathed in metal.

I personally feel that what I want could easily be covered by a Runic Knight (based off Celes from FF6)/ Mystic Knight (FF5) class and this would most likely be the best answer to a magic tank.
I could see this class' relying on parry vs. PLD's block, utilizing some sort of magic shield ability that makes damage taken detract from MP instead of HP and a "Runic Blade" ability that mitigates damage and transfers X% of damage taken into MP, thus fueling the magic shield ability. There would be of course other abilities to flesh out and balance the class, but hopefully you get the idea.

As for Red Mage, I still don't feel that a generalist role works for a trinity based mmo game, even if it is classically what the RDM was. I do agree with the idea that RDM should probably be a damage dealer with some support abilities similar to the BRD, but maybe make them the melee version with armor/def more inline with LNC/DRC since they need to be up close and personal and also since RDM could wear heavier armors in the classic FF games, although not the heaviest/best.

I also like the idea that both Runic/Mystic Knight and Red Mage would be Jobs based off a Fencer class that utilizes dueling swords, maybe even with an off-hand parrying dagger that increases Parry chance similar to Shields and block.

Anyways, that is where I am at the moment. Thanks everyone for your ideas and feedback.