Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Duelle]

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look.

I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs. You know, "look at this awesome job that uses swords and light armor and has access to more magic than a standard fighter!", followed by "guess what? you're at level cap and the stuff that drew you to the job is no longer valid! You're now refresh/haste/cure bot. Learn to like it or reroll LOL". Paladins in WoW were cheated the same way, which is why I get a little touchy on the subject of hybrids and RDM.

[Kitru]

I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs.

Hybrid-role classes always end up getting screwed over in trinity MMOs. Hybrids are all about generalization; the trinity is all about specialization. The worst thing about the early MMOs, in my opinion, was the hybrid tax: even if your role was as a DPS/healer/tank, because you had some cross-role functionality you were automatically relegated to inferior effectiveness at your actual role. The hybrid tax was an early justification for poor balance, which is why you'll almost never find an MMO nowadays that still believes in the hybrid tax: all DPS is equal, even if some of that DPS happens to have a baseline heal (which pretty much always ends up being completely and utterly worthless thanks to not having the gear, traits, or talents when you're DPSing to be anything beyond a token ability).

The JoAT aspect of Red Mage has to come across in the theme, the mechanics have to bring together melee with casting, and the role has to remain specialized.

I could easily see it as a class that bounces between MP and TP consuming abilities much like THM/BLM bounces between chewing through MP and regaining it super fast: you alternate between using TP abilities and MP abilities with relevant "combos" for each. I would expect it to be a DoW class (mainly because it uses leather/chain rather than cloth so it would be using DoW gear along with BRD and MNK) and probably be combo based.

Another way to accomplish the hybrid design would be by having combos utilizing both MP and TP abilities, much like the suggested Cure combo for PLD, wherein you start off with a baseline attack, move into a more advanced melee, and then end it with an actual spell (or attack/spell/attack, but I don't think that sounds as likely). You could even manage to bring in some WHM functionality by allowing the combos to branch out into either a damage spell or a healing spell (so you're either doing full DPS with the casting or trading off your big hit to provide a middling heal; I would probably expect it to be something like an AoE/self heal or AoE/self absorb shield rather than one you have to explicitly target). This construct could use spells that you have to actually hardcast, but I think that would feel more than a bit clunky. I would think that all of the "spells" would be instant casts, at least instant when you're using them as part of the combos.

Going with stances or en-element spells as the core "hybridization" aspect of the class just seems like a cheap cop out as does having spells that are effectively worthless outside of short periods where specific CDs are active. It shouldn't be that hard to have a class that uses the two seamlessly, since it's not like there's a massive difference between a spell and a melee attack on the back end. It would also be a lot more interesting to play a hybrid melee/caster that actually interweaves the two capabilities rather than segregating them.

[Duelle]

Going with stances or en-element spells as the core "hybridization" aspect of the class just seems like a cheap cop out as does having spells that are effectively worthless outside of short periods where specific CDs are active. It shouldn't be that hard to have a class that uses the two seamlessly, since it's not like there's a massive difference between a spell and a melee attack on the back end. It would also be a lot more interesting to play a hybrid melee/caster that actually interweaves the two capabilities rather than segregating them.

Given the limitations of the armoury system and the fact this still has to fit in the PS3 cross-bars, I'll disagree.

I'd want nothing more than to see RDM get enspells as self-casted spells with long duration and access to the standard nukes. Problem is DoM classes do not have the melee foundation for it to work. Nukes can also not be cross classed into DoW classes. To develop and establish the job's melee foundation it HAS to come from a DoW class (hence Fencer), and thus play to the rules of DoW.

Even if you allowed cross-classing you have the 5-ability limit as well as balance concerns. Sword&magic hybrids sacrifice range for their ability to be decent in close combat, and I doubt the RDM soul crystal would reduce the range of select cross-classed spells to melee range for it to work out. I've been cooking up RDM redesigns since I realized the job was a buff-bot with token debuffs 7 years ago, so at this point I'm simply giving suggestions based on what I know the game's combat system can do.

[Kitru]

Given the limitations of the armoury system and the fact this still has to fit in the PS3 cross-bars, I'll disagree.

I'd want nothing more than to see RDM get enspells as self-casted spells with long duration and access to the standard nukes. Problem is DoM classes do not have the melee foundation for it to work. Nukes can also not be cross classed into DoW classes. To develop and establish the job's melee foundation it HAS to come from a DoW class (hence Fencer), and thus play to the rules of DoW.

First off, the abilities that can be cross-classed are based upon the class that you're currently in, not a default list. For example, a SCH can get Cleric Stance from CNJ but no other class/job can. The fact that there is a generic list that some classes share is purely coincidence. As such, it would be entirely possible for a RDM to get access to Fire and Blizzard, though I doubt they would since they use the fundamental mechanic of THM as part of their baseline function.

Secondly, just because they won't have access to the direct abilities that WHM and BLM have doesn't mean that you won't have any spells. Rather than having Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, and the like, a RDM would have its *own* versions, likely instant casts and possibly with combo attributes added.

As to fitting into the PS3 crossbars, you're inflating the number of buttons that RDM would be using. My design would keep them using a similar number as any other DoW class (which, yes, I would make it based off of; not sure where you got the supposition that it would be DoM). You would have 1 combo starter, 2-3 combo intermediates (1-2 TP "physical" attacks and 1 MP "magical"), and probably ~5 combo finishers (1 physical, 1 Fire attack, 1 Thunder attack, 1 Blizzard attack, 1 Cure/Protect attack; none of them have to be *named* Fire/Blizz/Thund either; could easily go with Flash, Freeze, Bolt, and Heal). That's *barely* more than a WAR gets and could easily be managed by having fewer off-GCD abilities to use. You could probably do without so many combo finishers, but I like the idea of having access to all of the "basic" spells. The only thing you'd "need' to do is cap the total number of abilities provided by the base class at what WAR gets.

I'd have all of the "cast" finishers deal bonus combo damage of their element and apply a relevant benefit on top of it: fire finisher applies a DoT, thunder finisher has a chance to paralyze, ice finisher applies heavy, cure finisher applies a smallish HoT to you and all allies within a small radius. Have all of them based off of attack power to prevent the normal hybrid stat problems. I'd likely give em a stance that lets em use Dex instead of Str for attack power, since I don't see FNC or RDM being strong as much as agile.

I don't think that the developers should feel restricted by the mechanics that other games used. RDM doesn't have to use the exact same spells as RDM and WHM, nor should it be *forced* to draw additionals from them to be able to perform their job. Additionals are supposed to be just that: additional abilities, not fundamental abilities. All RDM would need to do is have spells *similar* in theme to the low level spells that a WHM and BLM get. After that, it should be all unique class abilities that show that they're not just a diluted combination of two others.

[Duelle]

just because they won't have access to the direct abilities that WHM and BLM have doesn't mean that you won't have any spells. Rather than having Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, and the like, a RDM would have its *own* versions, likely instant casts and possibly with combo attributes added.

While taking up space in the base class' arsenal to justify this. Nevermind that this blatantly clashes with the base class that would then be able to equip the RDM soul. I wouldn't expect a fencer to know how to cast magic offhand. I'd expect them to coat their weapons with poison or maybe learn a simple enchant to further pierce enemy defenses, and that's what I kept in mind with my suggestion. Something your experienced mages would scoff at but can still turn the tide of a fight in the right hands.

As to fitting into the PS3 crossbars, you're inflating the number of buttons that RDM would be using.

You're underestimating the amount of abilities that can come with a hybrid job. You also forgot why they purged abilities and spells and combined them in some cases: to avoid ability bloat because it would obviously clash with intended gameplay through the PS3. I called this back when people were crying over Protect and Shell being combined into 1 spell, THM/BLM gaining only half of the elemental wheel and enfeebles/debuffs being melded into formerly standalone spells like Stone and Aero. I knew the reasoning and was fine with it back then, and have kept it in mind to this day.

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In the spirit of sportsmanship and because I'm bored, let's assign abilities to a pretend Fencer. I'll keep your words in consideration, despite disagreeing with them at pretty much every turn. To go along with a picture I once made, we'll use lancer as the base and change things where appropriate.

Abilities
01 Quick Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of X.
02 Reveal - Decreases target's damage resistance by X% for 12 seconds.
04 Stocatta - Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Combo => Quick Thrust: X+Y Potency
06 Graze - Parry the next two physical attacks, reducing damage taken by 35% per attack.
08
10 Hamstring - Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Decreases target's movement speed by 20% for X seconds.
12 Soul Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Decreases target's resistance to magic damage for 10 seconds.
15 Fleche - Lunges at a target and delivers an attack with a potency of 300. Must be more than 5 yalms from the target. 10 yalm range.
18 Burn - Deals fire damage with a potency of 50. Combo => Soul Thrust: 100 potency. Damage over time with a potency of 25 for 18 seconds.
22 Frost -
26 Shock -
30 Triple Pin - Delivers a three-fold attack with a potency of X. Combo => Stocatta: <fill in>
34
38 Froissement - Interrupt the enemy's spell or channeled attack.
42 Brandish - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all enemies in a cone before you.
46 Glory Slash - Delivers an attack with a potency of 20 to all enemies in a cone before you. If the main target is affected by Burn, Frost or Shock, the effect is spread to all enemis hit by Glory Slash.
50 Death Blossom - Delivers a four-fold attack with a potency of 200. Doubles the duration of Burn, Frost and Shock.

Traits
08 Enhanced Dexterity (Fencer) - Increases DEX by 2.
14 Enhanced Reveal - Extends Damage Resistance Down duration inflicted by Reveal to 30 seconds.
16 Enhanced Dexterity II (Fencer) - Increases DEX by 4.
20 Perfect Graze - While Graze is active you can parry spells as well as physical attacks.
24 Enhanced Dexterity III (Fencer) - Increases DEX by 6.
28 Enhanced Hamstring - Hamstring now decreases enemy movement speed by 40%.
32
36
40
44
50

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Red Mage abilities

30 Magic Sword: Stance. Using Burn, Frost or Shock enchants your attacks to do additional damage of their respective element for 45 seconds.
35 Stun: 20 yalm range. Stuns target for up to 5 seconds. 35 second recast.
40 Double: Doubles the potency, cost and cooldown of the next spell or weapon skill.
45
50

I'll leave you to fill in the rest. I'll go get some sleep in the meanwhile.

[Kitru]

One of the first things you'd need to do would be to add a stance (or trait) that allows you to use DEX instead of STR for melee attacks, probably at level 2.

Reveal would need to only apply to piercing damage to prevent *massive* value inflation. An improved Reveal trait later on (40-50) *could* have it apply to more than one damage type, but not all.

I would also only make one of the "combo spells" a baseline functionality of the Fencer. As you said yourself, the Fencer shouldn't be hugely into magic. One variation might be to have Magic Sword act somewhat like Defiance insofar as it adds bonus functionality to existing combo attack (this is actually something I want to go with; I know, I'm so fickle in design, but that's what happens when you do the brainstorming thing).

Also, I'm going to avoid applying levels to everything. That just gets wonky and hard to organize. The gear construct I'm envisioning is a rapier in the main hand and a main gauche (parrying dagger) in the other.

There are 17 "slots" for class abilities, 11 slots for class traits, and 5 slots for job abilities. None of them are presented in the order in which they would be received.

For later reference, the class would be treated as an mDPS class by default for purposes of Limit Break (this will make sense when you get to the job abilities).

Class Abilities:

1. Primero: 150 potency attack

2. Secundo: 100 potency attack, Combo: Primero, 200 potency

3. Flourish: 100 potency attack, Combo: Secundo, 220 potency
Freecasting: Attack deals fire damage and further fire damage over time for 18 seconds, potency 20 (Burn)
Magic Sword: Attack deals fire damage and further fire damage over time for 18 seconds, potency 20 (Burn)

4. Weaving Strike: 100 potency attack, Combo: Secundo, increase parry chance by 20% for 12 seconds
Freecasting: You and all allies within 5m gain an absorb shield, potency 100
Magic Sword: You gain an absorb shield for 10 seconds equal to 300% of damage dealt

5. Lightning Thrust: 100 potency attack, Combo: Secundo, 260 potency
Freecasting: Attack deals lightning damage and 15% chance to paralyze target for 5 seconds (Shock)
Magic Sword: Attack deals lightning damage and 15% chance to paralyze target for 5 seconds

6. Hamstring: 100 potency attack, Combo: Secundo, 150 potency and 30% heavy for 18 seconds
Freecasting: Attack deals ice damage, heavy is increased to 40% and ice damage over time, potency 10 (Freeze)
Magic Weapon: Attack deals ice damage, target's attack speed and cast speed are reduced by 20% for 18 seconds

7. Terzo: 100 potency attack, Combo: Primero, 160 potency and increases critical hit chance by 30% for 18 seconds
Freecasting: Deals 20 additional potency for each of Burn, Shock, and Freeze on the target
Magic Weapon: increased enmity (x3)

8. Moullinet: 100 potency attack, Combo: Terzo, target takes damage over time for 18 seconds, potency 35

9. Glorioso: 100 potency attack, Combo: Terzo, 280 potency
Freecasting: Recovers MP, no MP cost
Magic Weapon: Recovers MP, increased enmity (x6)

10. Feint: Increase critical hit chance by 25%, removed when you score a critical hit or 10 sec, off-GCD, 30 second CD

11. Riposte: Can only be used after a parry, off-GCD, 200 potency attack

12. Strip Armor: 120 potency attack; reduces target's piercing resistance by 10% for 18 seconds

13. Pommel Strike: 130 potency attack, stun target for 3 seconds, 30 sec CD, off GCD

14. Skewer: potency 135 attack to all enemies in 5y line
Magic Weapon: increased enmity

15. Luck Over Skill: Increase critical hit chance by 30% for 10 seconds, off-GCD, 45 second CD
Magic Weapon: When you score a critical hit while this ability is active, parry chance is increased by 30% for 10 seconds

16. Offhand Toss: 120 potency 15y ranged attack
Magic Weapon: increased enmity

17. Renew Spirit: Restore hp, TP, and MP, Cure Potency 150, 200 TP, 20% MP based off of attack power

Class Traits:

1. Enhanced Moullinet: Increase Duration to 30 seconds
2. Enhanced Feint: Increase critical hit chance to 50%
3. Enhanced Weaving Strike: Increase duration to 18 seconds
4. Enhanced Luck Over Skill: Decrease CD to 30 seconds
5. Enhanced Dexterity I: Increase Dex by 2
6. Enhanced Dexterity II: Increase Dex by 4
7. Enhanced Dexterity III: Increase Dex by 6
8. Agile Fighter: Use Dexterity instead of Strength for melee attacks

RDM Job Abilities:

1. Freecasting: Stance. While active, some of your attacks allow you to cast a linked spell. Such abilities are given an MP cost in addition to their TP cost. If you do not have the necessary MP, attack resolves without the additional benefit
2. Healer's Aura: All allies within 30y have the potency of their healing effects increased by 10% for 20 seconds, 120 sec CD, off-GCD; While this is active, your Limit Break is treated as if you were a healer, cannot be used while Warrior's Aura or Caster's Aura is active
3. Warrior's Aura: All allies within 30y have the potency of their attacks increased by 10% for 20 seconds, 120 sec CD, off-GCD; while this is active, your Limit Break is treated as if you were a tank, cannot be used while Healer's Aura or Caster's Aura is active
4. Caster's Aura: All allies within 30y have the potency of their spells increased by 10% for 20 seconds, 120 sec CD, off-GCD; while this is active, your Limit Break is treated as if you were a caster, cannot be used while Healer's Aura or Warrior's Aura is active
5. Double Time: Increase skill speed by 100% for 10 seconds, 2 minute CD

MYS Job Abilities:

1. Magic Sword: Stance. While active, you are able to parry magic as well as melee attacks and your Defense is increased by 45% and your Magic Defense by 150%. Some abilities gain additional effects. Consumes MP over time and reduces damage by 25%. 20 sec CD
2. Shield I: Usable only after a parry. Provides an absorb shield for 10 seconds, potency 300, off-GCD, 5 sec CD
3. Shield II: Provides an absorb barrier and reduces incoming damage by 20% while active, lasts 10 seconds, potency 500, off-GCD, 90 sec CD
4. Unleash Magic: Attack with potency 600, Ends Magic Sword.
5. Masterstroke: Attack with potency 300, increase parry chance by 100% and parry strength by 20% for 10 seconds; 120 sec CD

Note: MYS gear is DRG/LNC gear and uses LNC as an additional job with Keen Flurry as an additional.

Basically, there are 2 separate combo trees: the Secundo tree, which is the "magic" combo tree, and the Terzo tree, which is the standard melee tree (the mp restore on Glorioso is to replenish the cost accrued by Magic Sword). Some of the combos are intentionally situational: Hamstring is terrible damage for a tertiary combo even with Terzo's bonus damage and the DoT included. You would only use it when you need to apply heavy.

Beyond that, Fencer's theme is pretty heavily +crit oriented (makes sense since it's not using a precision fighting weapon).

RDM adds a *lot* of versatility and support to the class. I liked the idea of being able to parry magic attacks, but thought it made more sense as part of MYS than Fencer or RDM (what with MYS being the "magic tank"). The way this is set up, Fencer is still a fully non-magical class and RDM just ends up auto-casting certain spells with certain attacks. The ability to do a crapton of different things is present in the various Aura abilities. Personally, I like the idea of a single class being able to pull perform whatever limit it might need to perform at a moment's notice, and RDM would be perfect for that, what with its generalist tendencies.

Mystic Knight, on the other hand, isn't as versatile but acts as an avoidance tank. It has lighter armor than the other tanks, but the stance and higher parry make up for that. The difference in mDef is made up by being able to parry magic attacks as well. The various +parry abilities act as mitigation on everything thanks to the "parry magic" aspect of Magic Sword.

With the way I've set it up, the requirements for RDM would likely be something like 30 FNC, 10-15 CNJ, 10-15 THM and MYS would be 30 FNC, 15 ARC.

By the way, the numbers are nowhere near solid. I don't know enough about DPS potency modification numbers or baseline crit rates or anything, so most of those numbers are just there for comparison's sake (i.e. Moullinet does more damage than Glorioso but only when the DoT is allowed to fully resolve).

[Duelle]

One of the first things you'd need to do would be to add a stance (or trait) that allows you to use DEX instead of STR for melee attacks, probably at level 2.

Why would you need a stance to change DEX to STR? You could just have the class scale with DEX as its main stat. It's not like MNKs and LNCs want yet another class to compete with for gear. Or is this more due to blanket rules like "DEX boosts ranged attacks"?

Reveal would need to only apply to piercing damage to prevent *massive* value inflation. An improved Reveal trait later on (40-50) *could* have it apply to more than one damage type, but not all.

I was treating Reveal's debuff to have a similar value as Feint's Slow, Rage of Hallone's STR Down and so on (and unlike Feint, Reveal would do no damage, so you essentially "waste" a GCD applying it to increase raid DPS). The debuff's value would be more determined by the percentage, which is why I left that undefined. When I originally conceived Reveal I wanted it to become a single-use debuff for FNC and RDM and a stacking debuff for Mystic Knight though MTK's soul crystal mechanic (using the stacks more as a threat modifier for MTK rather than to further increase raid DPS while MTK is tanking).

I guess I can allow the change to just piercing damage, but it would become more of a self-DPS buff unless your party/raid is stacking DRGs.

One variation might be to have Magic Sword act somewhat like Defiance insofar as it adds bonus functionality to existing combo attack.

An alternative would be Magic Sword reacting to whichever debuff was placed on the mob via the Soul Thrust => Spell combo. If the mob has no Burn/Frost/Shock debuff, Magic Sword cannot be used. If the mob has Burn/Frost/Shock, then Magic Sword deals damage and takes on the elemental property of the debuff. You could even have MSword consume the debuff if you want to add a "skill" component.