Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Kitru]

In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast, because they primarily cast magic.

Well, the reason that they *need* something as strong as doublecast is because they have an, effectively, terrible spell list. To be able to compete with the other casters, they need some advantage beyond just having access to the weakest spells of both schools. Doublecast exists less as an extension/definition of their being a raw caster than as the ability for them to actually be *effective* when they choose to cast. It allows them to either throw out damage like an offensive caster, at a steep cost thanks to effectively doubling the mp cost, heal like a defensive caster, at a similarly steep cost, or toss out damage and healing in the same turn, which is something unique to them. They get to be effective by having a better economy of action to make up for lower potency actions.

I also wouldn't say that they primarily cast magic either. They've always used swords and have always dealt a fair deal of their damage through melee. They're JoATs. Saying that they're primarily casters when they're always equally effective at stabbing things, healing allies, and exploding enemies is a bit disingenuous. They're less effective at any of those aspects as any of the specialist classes, but they do all of them equally well.

It's because of this that it's most likely that they'll end up being DPS: melee and offensive magic sync up effectively for DPS, and defensive magic can easily be redone as support abilities. The economy of action that Doublecast provides could either be accomplished by having spells cast via melee attacks (i.e. action free casts) or having a CD that doubles spell speed for a short while. I would expect for the various en-element spells to be baseline for the class and stuff like Doublecast to be part of the Red Mage proper.

[Ruminate]

RDM melee damage was terrible, and their magic damage was even worse, even with Double Cast. Their melee damage outscales their magic damage because RDM are barred from obtaining the best magic, but not barred from wearing the best equipment. In FFV, I distinctly remember Dancers dealing more damage in general than RDM. Even the FFV BRD had its damage role niche by demolishing undead and dragons.

To be able to compete at all, non-MMO RDM were relegated to a role that utilized spells that didn't scale with stats. In other words, buffing and debuffs. Doublecast allowed them to throw out more buffs and debuffs sooner.

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look. Other people, like myself, hated how the FFXI RDM turned out because their only support ability of any value was Refresh, turning them into nothing more than Refresh bots.

[Duelle]

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look.

I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs. You know, "look at this awesome job that uses swords and light armor and has access to more magic than a standard fighter!", followed by "guess what? you're at level cap and the stuff that drew you to the job is no longer valid! You're now refresh/haste/cure bot. Learn to like it or reroll LOL". Paladins in WoW were cheated the same way, which is why I get a little touchy on the subject of hybrids and RDM.

[Kitru]

I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs.

Hybrid-role classes always end up getting screwed over in trinity MMOs. Hybrids are all about generalization; the trinity is all about specialization. The worst thing about the early MMOs, in my opinion, was the hybrid tax: even if your role was as a DPS/healer/tank, because you had some cross-role functionality you were automatically relegated to inferior effectiveness at your actual role. The hybrid tax was an early justification for poor balance, which is why you'll almost never find an MMO nowadays that still believes in the hybrid tax: all DPS is equal, even if some of that DPS happens to have a baseline heal (which pretty much always ends up being completely and utterly worthless thanks to not having the gear, traits, or talents when you're DPSing to be anything beyond a token ability).

The JoAT aspect of Red Mage has to come across in the theme, the mechanics have to bring together melee with casting, and the role has to remain specialized.

I could easily see it as a class that bounces between MP and TP consuming abilities much like THM/BLM bounces between chewing through MP and regaining it super fast: you alternate between using TP abilities and MP abilities with relevant "combos" for each. I would expect it to be a DoW class (mainly because it uses leather/chain rather than cloth so it would be using DoW gear along with BRD and MNK) and probably be combo based.

Another way to accomplish the hybrid design would be by having combos utilizing both MP and TP abilities, much like the suggested Cure combo for PLD, wherein you start off with a baseline attack, move into a more advanced melee, and then end it with an actual spell (or attack/spell/attack, but I don't think that sounds as likely). You could even manage to bring in some WHM functionality by allowing the combos to branch out into either a damage spell or a healing spell (so you're either doing full DPS with the casting or trading off your big hit to provide a middling heal; I would probably expect it to be something like an AoE/self heal or AoE/self absorb shield rather than one you have to explicitly target). This construct could use spells that you have to actually hardcast, but I think that would feel more than a bit clunky. I would think that all of the "spells" would be instant casts, at least instant when you're using them as part of the combos.

Going with stances or en-element spells as the core "hybridization" aspect of the class just seems like a cheap cop out as does having spells that are effectively worthless outside of short periods where specific CDs are active. It shouldn't be that hard to have a class that uses the two seamlessly, since it's not like there's a massive difference between a spell and a melee attack on the back end. It would also be a lot more interesting to play a hybrid melee/caster that actually interweaves the two capabilities rather than segregating them.

[Duelle]

Going with stances or en-element spells as the core "hybridization" aspect of the class just seems like a cheap cop out as does having spells that are effectively worthless outside of short periods where specific CDs are active. It shouldn't be that hard to have a class that uses the two seamlessly, since it's not like there's a massive difference between a spell and a melee attack on the back end. It would also be a lot more interesting to play a hybrid melee/caster that actually interweaves the two capabilities rather than segregating them.

Given the limitations of the armoury system and the fact this still has to fit in the PS3 cross-bars, I'll disagree.

I'd want nothing more than to see RDM get enspells as self-casted spells with long duration and access to the standard nukes. Problem is DoM classes do not have the melee foundation for it to work. Nukes can also not be cross classed into DoW classes. To develop and establish the job's melee foundation it HAS to come from a DoW class (hence Fencer), and thus play to the rules of DoW.

Even if you allowed cross-classing you have the 5-ability limit as well as balance concerns. Sword&magic hybrids sacrifice range for their ability to be decent in close combat, and I doubt the RDM soul crystal would reduce the range of select cross-classed spells to melee range for it to work out. I've been cooking up RDM redesigns since I realized the job was a buff-bot with token debuffs 7 years ago, so at this point I'm simply giving suggestions based on what I know the game's combat system can do.

[Kitru]

Given the limitations of the armoury system and the fact this still has to fit in the PS3 cross-bars, I'll disagree.

I'd want nothing more than to see RDM get enspells as self-casted spells with long duration and access to the standard nukes. Problem is DoM classes do not have the melee foundation for it to work. Nukes can also not be cross classed into DoW classes. To develop and establish the job's melee foundation it HAS to come from a DoW class (hence Fencer), and thus play to the rules of DoW.

First off, the abilities that can be cross-classed are based upon the class that you're currently in, not a default list. For example, a SCH can get Cleric Stance from CNJ but no other class/job can. The fact that there is a generic list that some classes share is purely coincidence. As such, it would be entirely possible for a RDM to get access to Fire and Blizzard, though I doubt they would since they use the fundamental mechanic of THM as part of their baseline function.

Secondly, just because they won't have access to the direct abilities that WHM and BLM have doesn't mean that you won't have any spells. Rather than having Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, and the like, a RDM would have its *own* versions, likely instant casts and possibly with combo attributes added.

As to fitting into the PS3 crossbars, you're inflating the number of buttons that RDM would be using. My design would keep them using a similar number as any other DoW class (which, yes, I would make it based off of; not sure where you got the supposition that it would be DoM). You would have 1 combo starter, 2-3 combo intermediates (1-2 TP "physical" attacks and 1 MP "magical"), and probably ~5 combo finishers (1 physical, 1 Fire attack, 1 Thunder attack, 1 Blizzard attack, 1 Cure/Protect attack; none of them have to be *named* Fire/Blizz/Thund either; could easily go with Flash, Freeze, Bolt, and Heal). That's *barely* more than a WAR gets and could easily be managed by having fewer off-GCD abilities to use. You could probably do without so many combo finishers, but I like the idea of having access to all of the "basic" spells. The only thing you'd "need' to do is cap the total number of abilities provided by the base class at what WAR gets.

I'd have all of the "cast" finishers deal bonus combo damage of their element and apply a relevant benefit on top of it: fire finisher applies a DoT, thunder finisher has a chance to paralyze, ice finisher applies heavy, cure finisher applies a smallish HoT to you and all allies within a small radius. Have all of them based off of attack power to prevent the normal hybrid stat problems. I'd likely give em a stance that lets em use Dex instead of Str for attack power, since I don't see FNC or RDM being strong as much as agile.

I don't think that the developers should feel restricted by the mechanics that other games used. RDM doesn't have to use the exact same spells as RDM and WHM, nor should it be *forced* to draw additionals from them to be able to perform their job. Additionals are supposed to be just that: additional abilities, not fundamental abilities. All RDM would need to do is have spells *similar* in theme to the low level spells that a WHM and BLM get. After that, it should be all unique class abilities that show that they're not just a diluted combination of two others.

[Duelle]

just because they won't have access to the direct abilities that WHM and BLM have doesn't mean that you won't have any spells. Rather than having Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, and the like, a RDM would have its *own* versions, likely instant casts and possibly with combo attributes added.

While taking up space in the base class' arsenal to justify this. Nevermind that this blatantly clashes with the base class that would then be able to equip the RDM soul. I wouldn't expect a fencer to know how to cast magic offhand. I'd expect them to coat their weapons with poison or maybe learn a simple enchant to further pierce enemy defenses, and that's what I kept in mind with my suggestion. Something your experienced mages would scoff at but can still turn the tide of a fight in the right hands.

As to fitting into the PS3 crossbars, you're inflating the number of buttons that RDM would be using.

You're underestimating the amount of abilities that can come with a hybrid job. You also forgot why they purged abilities and spells and combined them in some cases: to avoid ability bloat because it would obviously clash with intended gameplay through the PS3. I called this back when people were crying over Protect and Shell being combined into 1 spell, THM/BLM gaining only half of the elemental wheel and enfeebles/debuffs being melded into formerly standalone spells like Stone and Aero. I knew the reasoning and was fine with it back then, and have kept it in mind to this day.

------------------------------------

In the spirit of sportsmanship and because I'm bored, let's assign abilities to a pretend Fencer. I'll keep your words in consideration, despite disagreeing with them at pretty much every turn. To go along with a picture I once made, we'll use lancer as the base and change things where appropriate.

Abilities
01 Quick Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of X.
02 Reveal - Decreases target's damage resistance by X% for 12 seconds.
04 Stocatta - Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Combo => Quick Thrust: X+Y Potency
06 Graze - Parry the next two physical attacks, reducing damage taken by 35% per attack.
08
10 Hamstring - Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Decreases target's movement speed by 20% for X seconds.
12 Soul Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Decreases target's resistance to magic damage for 10 seconds.
15 Fleche - Lunges at a target and delivers an attack with a potency of 300. Must be more than 5 yalms from the target. 10 yalm range.
18 Burn - Deals fire damage with a potency of 50. Combo => Soul Thrust: 100 potency. Damage over time with a potency of 25 for 18 seconds.
22 Frost -
26 Shock -
30 Triple Pin - Delivers a three-fold attack with a potency of X. Combo => Stocatta: <fill in>
34
38 Froissement - Interrupt the enemy's spell or channeled attack.
42 Brandish - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all enemies in a cone before you.
46 Glory Slash - Delivers an attack with a potency of 20 to all enemies in a cone before you. If the main target is affected by Burn, Frost or Shock, the effect is spread to all enemis hit by Glory Slash.
50 Death Blossom - Delivers a four-fold attack with a potency of 200. Doubles the duration of Burn, Frost and Shock.

Traits
08 Enhanced Dexterity (Fencer) - Increases DEX by 2.
14 Enhanced Reveal - Extends Damage Resistance Down duration inflicted by Reveal to 30 seconds.
16 Enhanced Dexterity II (Fencer) - Increases DEX by 4.
20 Perfect Graze - While Graze is active you can parry spells as well as physical attacks.
24 Enhanced Dexterity III (Fencer) - Increases DEX by 6.
28 Enhanced Hamstring - Hamstring now decreases enemy movement speed by 40%.
32
36
40
44
50

------------------

Red Mage abilities

30 Magic Sword: Stance. Using Burn, Frost or Shock enchants your attacks to do additional damage of their respective element for 45 seconds.
35 Stun: 20 yalm range. Stuns target for up to 5 seconds. 35 second recast.
40 Double: Doubles the potency, cost and cooldown of the next spell or weapon skill.
45
50

I'll leave you to fill in the rest. I'll go get some sleep in the meanwhile.