Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Eremor]

Yeah they added on En-spells to RDM in XI, but you have to admit it fits the job, sword wielding magic user, why wouldn't they buff their weapon with magic? The problem with Mystic Knight is that it only does the one thing, it's not rounded out enough for a MMO job, in XI they gave it abilities that RDM already had (bar-spells and phalanx and some other enhancing magic) in order to round it out. As far as I'm concerned Rune Fencer was only made to appease RDM melee pushers without having to change RDM at all, but all they did was piss them off.

But that was XI and this is XIV, the two jobs certainly are similar and I wouldn't mind them both stemming from a single class, with RDM being more support focused and Mystic Knight being tank focused.

[Ruminate]

Yeah they added on En-spells to RDM in XI, but you have to admit it fits the job, sword wielding magic user, why wouldn't they buff their weapon with magic? The problem with Mystic Knight is that it only does the one thing, it's not rounded out enough for a MMO job, in XI they gave it abilities that RDM already had (bar-spells and phalanx and some other enhancing magic) in order to round it out. As far as I'm concerned Rune Fencer was only made to appease RDM melee pushers without having to change RDM at all, but all they did was piss them off.

But that was XI and this is XIV, the two jobs certainly are similar and I wouldn't mind them both stemming from a single class, with RDM being more support focused and Mystic Knight being tank focused.

Mystic Knights dealt very high damage. Thats rounded enough for an MMO class. Its not rounded enough for a tanking role, but thats because they were never great at survival to begin with.

Mystic knights and RDMs aren't really all that similar aside from the fact that they wield swords and cast magic-like effects. In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast, because they primarily cast magic. In most FF, the Mystic Knight's signature skill is Spellblade, because they primarily swing their weapon.

[Kitru]

In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast, because they primarily cast magic.

Well, the reason that they *need* something as strong as doublecast is because they have an, effectively, terrible spell list. To be able to compete with the other casters, they need some advantage beyond just having access to the weakest spells of both schools. Doublecast exists less as an extension/definition of their being a raw caster than as the ability for them to actually be *effective* when they choose to cast. It allows them to either throw out damage like an offensive caster, at a steep cost thanks to effectively doubling the mp cost, heal like a defensive caster, at a similarly steep cost, or toss out damage and healing in the same turn, which is something unique to them. They get to be effective by having a better economy of action to make up for lower potency actions.

I also wouldn't say that they primarily cast magic either. They've always used swords and have always dealt a fair deal of their damage through melee. They're JoATs. Saying that they're primarily casters when they're always equally effective at stabbing things, healing allies, and exploding enemies is a bit disingenuous. They're less effective at any of those aspects as any of the specialist classes, but they do all of them equally well.

It's because of this that it's most likely that they'll end up being DPS: melee and offensive magic sync up effectively for DPS, and defensive magic can easily be redone as support abilities. The economy of action that Doublecast provides could either be accomplished by having spells cast via melee attacks (i.e. action free casts) or having a CD that doubles spell speed for a short while. I would expect for the various en-element spells to be baseline for the class and stuff like Doublecast to be part of the Red Mage proper.

[Ruminate]

RDM melee damage was terrible, and their magic damage was even worse, even with Double Cast. Their melee damage outscales their magic damage because RDM are barred from obtaining the best magic, but not barred from wearing the best equipment. In FFV, I distinctly remember Dancers dealing more damage in general than RDM. Even the FFV BRD had its damage role niche by demolishing undead and dragons.

To be able to compete at all, non-MMO RDM were relegated to a role that utilized spells that didn't scale with stats. In other words, buffing and debuffs. Doublecast allowed them to throw out more buffs and debuffs sooner.

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look. Other people, like myself, hated how the FFXI RDM turned out because their only support ability of any value was Refresh, turning them into nothing more than Refresh bots.

[Duelle]

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look.

I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs. You know, "look at this awesome job that uses swords and light armor and has access to more magic than a standard fighter!", followed by "guess what? you're at level cap and the stuff that drew you to the job is no longer valid! You're now refresh/haste/cure bot. Learn to like it or reroll LOL". Paladins in WoW were cheated the same way, which is why I get a little touchy on the subject of hybrids and RDM.

[Kitru]

I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs.

Hybrid-role classes always end up getting screwed over in trinity MMOs. Hybrids are all about generalization; the trinity is all about specialization. The worst thing about the early MMOs, in my opinion, was the hybrid tax: even if your role was as a DPS/healer/tank, because you had some cross-role functionality you were automatically relegated to inferior effectiveness at your actual role. The hybrid tax was an early justification for poor balance, which is why you'll almost never find an MMO nowadays that still believes in the hybrid tax: all DPS is equal, even if some of that DPS happens to have a baseline heal (which pretty much always ends up being completely and utterly worthless thanks to not having the gear, traits, or talents when you're DPSing to be anything beyond a token ability).

The JoAT aspect of Red Mage has to come across in the theme, the mechanics have to bring together melee with casting, and the role has to remain specialized.

I could easily see it as a class that bounces between MP and TP consuming abilities much like THM/BLM bounces between chewing through MP and regaining it super fast: you alternate between using TP abilities and MP abilities with relevant "combos" for each. I would expect it to be a DoW class (mainly because it uses leather/chain rather than cloth so it would be using DoW gear along with BRD and MNK) and probably be combo based.

Another way to accomplish the hybrid design would be by having combos utilizing both MP and TP abilities, much like the suggested Cure combo for PLD, wherein you start off with a baseline attack, move into a more advanced melee, and then end it with an actual spell (or attack/spell/attack, but I don't think that sounds as likely). You could even manage to bring in some WHM functionality by allowing the combos to branch out into either a damage spell or a healing spell (so you're either doing full DPS with the casting or trading off your big hit to provide a middling heal; I would probably expect it to be something like an AoE/self heal or AoE/self absorb shield rather than one you have to explicitly target). This construct could use spells that you have to actually hardcast, but I think that would feel more than a bit clunky. I would think that all of the "spells" would be instant casts, at least instant when you're using them as part of the combos.

Going with stances or en-element spells as the core "hybridization" aspect of the class just seems like a cheap cop out as does having spells that are effectively worthless outside of short periods where specific CDs are active. It shouldn't be that hard to have a class that uses the two seamlessly, since it's not like there's a massive difference between a spell and a melee attack on the back end. It would also be a lot more interesting to play a hybrid melee/caster that actually interweaves the two capabilities rather than segregating them.

[Duelle]

Going with stances or en-element spells as the core "hybridization" aspect of the class just seems like a cheap cop out as does having spells that are effectively worthless outside of short periods where specific CDs are active. It shouldn't be that hard to have a class that uses the two seamlessly, since it's not like there's a massive difference between a spell and a melee attack on the back end. It would also be a lot more interesting to play a hybrid melee/caster that actually interweaves the two capabilities rather than segregating them.

Given the limitations of the armoury system and the fact this still has to fit in the PS3 cross-bars, I'll disagree.

I'd want nothing more than to see RDM get enspells as self-casted spells with long duration and access to the standard nukes. Problem is DoM classes do not have the melee foundation for it to work. Nukes can also not be cross classed into DoW classes. To develop and establish the job's melee foundation it HAS to come from a DoW class (hence Fencer), and thus play to the rules of DoW.

Even if you allowed cross-classing you have the 5-ability limit as well as balance concerns. Sword&magic hybrids sacrifice range for their ability to be decent in close combat, and I doubt the RDM soul crystal would reduce the range of select cross-classed spells to melee range for it to work out. I've been cooking up RDM redesigns since I realized the job was a buff-bot with token debuffs 7 years ago, so at this point I'm simply giving suggestions based on what I know the game's combat system can do.

[Duelle]

Mystic Knights dealt very high damage. Thats rounded enough for an MMO class. Its not rounded enough for a tanking role, but thats because they were never great at survival to begin with.

魔法剣士/Mystic Knight was basically a black mage that cast their nukes through a sword; that was it. They were so one-dimensional that the concept was converted to sword enchanting and given to RDM in FFXI, which looking at spellswords and sword&magic archetypes, it makes sense. It's testimony to hybridity, not to mention it looks awesome as hell.

In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast

Building RDM around double cast would be pointless because then you're obviously making up for a weak spell list. Some form of it may be acceptable (like my suggested "Double" ability), but even then I can admit you'd have PvP concerns over it (which should always be kept in mind because PvP is a part of this game).

The main thing about RDM in an MMORPG is that the melee and magic sides of the job cannot be treated separately like in the console FFs. The abilities have to mesh and combine into a greater whole in order to be a job that can function acceptably within the trinity. I've harped on this before, but outside of the console FF's, RDM's defining traits should be how they apply the stuff they borrowed from Fighter, Black Mage and White Mage. A BLM may use Fire to blow up a door into a room, where a RDM may use their weaker version of Fire to melt the lock. A Fighter can hit someone for really high physical damage, whereas a RDM may ensorcel their sword so that it does the expected inferior physical damage but also make up the difference through the damage by Enfire.