Red Mage as possible new tank class

[ZenBear]

So I was thinking about new classes that could be added and Red Mage was the first that came to mind for me (I love their look and really liked them in FFXI).

I don't feel that the way they worked in FFXI would work that great in FFXIV, so I thought why not make them a new type of magic based tank, sort of a cross between FFXI's Red Mage and Rune Fencer.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Rune_Fencer
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Red_Mage

What do people think about this idea?

I like it. Class req's: Gladiator 30/Scholar 15 (Scholars have healing and dmg spells, so it fits more-or-less). That being said, I think RDM fits better as a DD. Give them DoTs and En-Element weapon enhancements to suit various circumstances.

The next tank class they add will, in all likelihood, be Dark Knight. Samurai could be a possible second.

I don't understand the idea of making Dark Knight a tank class. My first experience with the class comes from FFXI where they were straight DD that couldn't last 10 seconds with mob aggro, and I liked it that way. The stark counter of Warrior/White Mage being a protector vs. a Warrior/Black Mage being a destroyer was thematically beautiful.

Samurai, on the other hand, I would love to see as a tank. Being that they were the "knights" of feudal japan, the parallel to Paladins is obvious. Make them a DEX-based parry tank to give them a distinct flavor.

[Kitru]

I don't understand the idea of making Dark Knight a tank class.

There aren't many "historical" Dark Knights, but those that have in the FF games been very tanky, essentially PLD themed around unholy rather than holy. It wasn't really a Warrior/Black Mage so much as a Warrior/anti-White Mage. The first was Cecil, pre-paladin, in FFIV. After that, you got Gafgarion from Tactics, who was definitely tanky, what with using the same gear loadout as a Knight and having a weapon based drain attack that he could use at-will so that he was almost impossible to kill. The only other major manifestation was in FFX-2, wherein they were, once again, a really durable class (i.e. high defense and craploads of hp) with the ability to toss out a bit more damage by sacrificing some hp.

Dark Knight never had Black Magic (baseline, you could add it as part of the baseline system though, with the stats it had, the damage would suck). The only connection between the two is in the name (Dark and Black). It was always an exceptionally durable (which it needed to be to be able to sacrifice hp to deal damage) and used the same gear loadout as the Knight/Warrior/Fighter (i.e. tank). High hp and defense have always been part of the mechanical makeup.

Now, as to what it would be, I could see it as another GLA job (as a mirror to PLD) where it's DPS, using a sword and shield like Cecil/Gafgarion (likely GLA/THM with MAR as the second additional), but, if it gets its own base class, I highly doubt it would be a DPS job, especially if it uses a 2h sword (which I expect would be the most likely; scythes are already botanist offhands, though that's not going to explicitly stop it from happening since botanists use a hatchet in the main hand) and heavy armor.

The only place where I've ever seen Dark Knight be interpreted as DPS was in FFXI (which also happens to be the only place where it got tied to using Black Magic). Everywhere else it was just one of the various tank-y types.

[Sephirah]

There aren't many "historical" Dark Knights, but those that have in the FF games been very tanky, essentially PLD themed around unholy rather than holy. It wasn't really a Warrior/Black Mage so much as a Warrior/anti-White Mage. The first was Cecil, pre-paladin, in FFIV. After that, you got Gafgarion from Tactics, who was definitely tanky, what with using the same gear loadout as a Knight and having a weapon based drain attack that he could use at-will so that he was almost impossible to kill. The only other major manifestation was in FFX-2, wherein they were, once again, a really durable class (i.e. high defense and craploads of hp) with the ability to toss out a bit more damage by sacrificing some hp.

Dark Knight never had Black Magic (baseline, you could add it as part of the baseline system though, with the stats it had, the damage would suck). The only connection between the two is in the name (Dark and Black). It was always an exceptionally durable (which it needed to be to be able to sacrifice hp to deal damage) and used the same gear loadout as the Knight/Warrior/Fighter (i.e. tank). High hp and defense have always been part of the mechanical makeup.

The only place where I've ever seen Dark Knight be interpreted as DPS was in FFXI (which also happens to be the only place where it got tied to using Black Magic). Everywhere else it was just one of the various tank-y types.

Actually, the first instance of a Dark Knight is Leon in FFII, who has high intelligence and black magic. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/L..._Fantasy_II%29

Dark Knights are still Knights, and thus will be "tankier" than any other non-heavy armor wearing class, but they have always had an emphasis on damage over defense.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Knight

More than likely, the next tank class will be Ninja.

But yes, Ninja is coming. They won’t tell us when though!

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...-Prime-13.html

[Kitru]

Dark Knights are still Knights, and thus will be "tankier" than any other non-heavy armor wearing class, but they have always had an emphasis on damage over defense.

The question then lies in how "tanky" does something have to be in a game that doesn't actually have any tanks in order to qualify as a tank in a game that does? It's part of the problem with trying to assign roles to classes that existed in games that didn't have roles.

As I see it, the differentiation can't be determined based upon offensive capability, mainly because *every* character in an FF game is general designed around being able to dole out damage as effectively as possible, with the possible exception of your healer. In the pre-MMO FF games, there isn't a "tank" role: there's DPS and healers. Even Cecil, the fundamental example of an FF Paladin was able to hold his own in the beating down of foes. Using the offensive capability of a character from those games to define their functionality in a game that actually *has* defined roles. It's for *this* reason that I see Dark Knight as being a tank: it was always "tanky". It always had high defenses. The method in which it dealt damage differed from others (essentially, stabbing things and bringing its own unique brand of magic), but it was still, fundamentally, one of the more durable classes to have around.

More than likely, the next tank class will be Ninja.

I still have to wonder how anyone could possibly envision Ninja as a tank, especially when the base class has pretty much been announced as "Thief". The only time I've ever seen a Ninja or Ninja-like class defined as anything other than a damage dealer was in FFXI. Every other thief or ninja in the entire series was *explicitly* a damage dealer. It would be like saying that a White Mage should be a tank because it can cast Protect.

The idea that Ninja will be a tank in FFXIV is simply dumbfounding, especially since the only reason that anyone *thinks* it will be a tank is because of how players applied the abilities given to it in a game without well defined roles without regard for intent (Red Mage was supposed to be a hybrid and instead became a buff bot thanks to a small number of spells). FFXIV has explicitly brought in classes with their abilities and role attached to a given intent. I would be willing to be *anything* that Ninja is going to be a DPS job, not a tank job. Having it be a tank job is just ludicrous.

[Duelle]

Dark Knights are still Knights, and thus will be "tankier" than any other non-heavy armor wearing class, but they have always had an emphasis on damage over defense.

I wouldn't use the T-word for Dark Knights, especially remembering that a DRK barely had more defense than a DRG or BLM in FFXI (one of the few ideas I would want them to borrow from XI).

The drain's/self heals are WAR's thing in this game, so I don't see DRk taking part in that at all. What I do see it doing is a DPS that does umbral/dark damage and kind of go from there. Even if it did sprout from GLA, I wouldn't really expect it to tank. There's other jobs that better fit the tank archetype (SAM, Mystic Knight).

[Kitru]

What I do see it doing is a DPS that does umbral/dark damage and kind of go from there. Even if it did sprout from GLA, I wouldn't really expect it to tank.

The *only* way I'd expect to see Dark Knight as a DPS would be if it sprouted out of GLA.

[Sephirah]

The only time I've ever seen a Ninja or Ninja-like class defined as anything other than a damage dealer was in FFXI.

Having it be a tank job is just ludicrous.

Specifically because they were tanks in 11 is why most people assume they will be the next tanks. Neither WAR or PLD tank by dodging/absorbing hits with shadows (sure we CAN dodge, but I'm sure a NIN would be much better at it)

I wouldn't use the T-word for Dark Knights, especially remembering that a DRK barely had more defense than a DRG or BLM in FFXI (one of the few ideas I would want them to borrow from XI).

The drain's/self heals are WAR's thing in this game, so I don't see DRk taking part in that at all. What I do see it doing is a DPS that does umbral/dark damage and kind of go from there. Even if it did sprout from GLA, I wouldn't really expect it to tank. There's other jobs that better fit the tank archetype (SAM, Mystic Knight).

I agree completely, I was saying that just because they have been "tanky" in the single player games compared to the other "classes" that aren't wearing heavy armor, they are still a Damage Dealer more than a "Tank".

Also gonna repost this from another thread

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/09...expanding-fun/

We then asked Yoshida whether other classes will have access to multiple jobs, much as Arcanists can dabble in Summoner skills. He said that we'll probably see more of that in the future. There will likely be existing classes made able to branch off into other jobs, and he does consider it highly important to have variety and lots of flexibility in the game's class system. Also under consideration is the possibility of combining two jobs to form a third, such as White and Black Mages combining to form a Red Mage.

He also laughed and mentioned that there's a "high possibility" of new jobs debuting prior to future expansions.

With the current Jobs, we could maybe expect things like:
WHM+BLM = Red Mage
WHM+PLD = Mystic Knight or Temple Knight (maybe then their white magic will actually do something)
WAR+BLM = Dark Knight
MNK+SMN = Geomancer
MNK+BRD = Dancer?

Assuming NIN is there, NIN/WAR would probably be Samurai.

[Eremor]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about Red Mage, not DRK or NIN.

The way I see it, the easiest thing to do is to have RDM stem from GLA and DRK from MRD (giving it access to HP drain abilities and two-handed weapons). This would inherently make RDM a tank job since most of GLAs abilities focus on generating enmity and mitigating damage. This would be fine with me, I really enjoyed playing RDM in XI and thought it even had some tanking potential there. But this would make it somewhat limited and it would be difficult to differentiate it from PLD, they both would use some white magic and share 75% of their abilities.

Ideally RDM would stem from it's own class (Fencer) and have a whole new set of abilities to make it unique. But of course this would be harder to implement and probably not happen until an expansion is made.

Edit:***Ninja'd by above post, pretty much making my ideas obsolete.***

Regarding WHM+BLM = RDM. I am fairly strongly against. Red Mage is about Magic and Melee, WHM+BLM gives absolutely no melee potential.

[Duelle]

Ideally RDM would stem from it's own class (Fencer) and have a whole new set of abilities to make it unique. But of course this would be harder to implement and probably not happen until an expansion is made.

I'm fine with waiting. I'd rather get RDM in a year or two knowing they'll do it's archetype justice over a hackjob that is as bad if not worse than FFXI's misrepresentation of my favorite job.

Regarding WHM+BLM = RDM. I am fairly strongly against. Red Mage is about Magic and Melee, WHM+BLM gives absolutely no melee potential.

Agreed. If they really go this route it means the jilted melee camp from FFXI and all the discussions tossed around during ARR's beta have been completely ignored.

Specifically because they were tanks in 11 is why most people assume they will be the next tanks. Neither WAR or PLD tank by dodging/absorbing hits with shadows (sure we CAN dodge, but I'm sure a NIN would be much better at it)

Utsusemi was a broken mechanic back then and continues to be so now. That some XI'ers are clinging to it for the sake of being different (and because they can't wrap their minds around the idea that tanking = mitigation and that mitigation can be done differently enough without having sink to the lows of blink tanking) has no place in discussing tank design. NIN tanks were an accident and a responsible dev team would have nerfed utsusemi to the ground and done what was necessary to have NIN function as intended, not sit on their hands and allow a broken mechanic to become part of the greater game.

[Sephirah]

Utsusemi was a broken mechanic back then and continues to be so now. That some XI'ers are clinging to it for the sake of being different (and because they can't wrap their minds around the idea that tanking = mitigation and that mitigation can be done differently enough without having sink to the lows of blink tanking) has no place in discussing tank design. NIN tanks were an accident and a responsible dev team would have nerfed utsusemi to the ground and done what was necessary to have NIN function as intended, not sit on their hands and allow a broken mechanic to become part of the greater game.

You are the one hung up on what MITIGATION is. Mitigation simply means decreasing the amount of damage taken. Using a shadow to absorb a hit or dodging is mitigating your damage.

I can't speculate on whether or not this was the original intention of Ninjas in 11, but after 10 years of it working that way, it's pretty apparent that they are fine with it. And just because they aren't blocking an attack with a shield does not mean they are any less capable of being a "tank".