Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Kitru]

What do people think about this idea?

It's possible (it's possible to think up tank variations by applying enmity generation and mitigation increase mechanisms for any class), but I don't think it really fits with the lore at all. Red Mages have always been generalists. They were never as durable as "true" melee classes so it really wouldn't make much sense.

Honestly, Fencer/Red Mage would most likely be a DPS class using a fusion of melee and black/white magic attacks.

The next tank class they add will, in all likelihood, be Dark Knight. Samurai could be a possible second.

[Ruminate]

The Rune Fencer in FFXI played like the RDM of past games.
The RDM in FFXI(while soloing) played like the Rune Fencer of past games.

FFXI gave them En- spells to boost their melee damage, but those spells actually belonged to Rune Fencers(in FFV anyways).

RDM as tanks makes the most sense because that is the only role that will allow them to make full use of black magic, white magic, and melee.

[Kitru]

RDM as tanks makes the most sense because that is the only role that will allow them to make full use of black magic, white magic, and melee.

Not really. If they're a melee support DPS job, which I would expect, the black magic and melee would be the effects of the attacks and the support functionality would be the equivalent of the white magic. They will, in all likelihood, be something like a melee Bard: TP DPS with 2-3 job abilities that allow them to provide some support and a few attacks that consume MP.

It's important to remember that FFXIV doesn't use the standard mechanical definitions of the classes (Red Mage always had a fuzzy mechanical definition anyways, since it was just "white + black magic" rather than anything truly unique). PLD, mechanically, was always a very durable melee/white magic class, but our PLD doesn't have any non-token white magic capabilities. The *theme* is present, but the previous mechanical construct isn't. Hell, Black Mages used to be the owners of most of the spells that SUM uses but those previous constructs were abandoned to give Summoners *something*.

The *theme* of Red Mage has always been a melee/magic hybrid. It was slightly more durable than the standard mage without ever really being as durable as a "true" melee, not to mention that it pretty much always lacked the strong support capabilities of a white mage and never had appreciable avoidance capabilities (that was always ninja/thief/monk). Honestly, for an avoidance/light armored tank, it would be a lot more likely to see Ninja than Red Mage. It's interesting to think up ways for Red Mage to be a tank class, but it's a stretch to make it a tank rather than the more easily approachable DPS/support construct.

[Dhex]

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I've thought about how they'd implement RDM before. I like the idea of a utility Job, and it's something FFXIV sorely lacks.

Red Mage stances or forms would be my approach. Subclass LNC & ??? (ARC PGL?)

Fencer's Stance (Similar to Sword Oath/Fists of Fire): Increases damage 10% and auto-attack speed 10%. Cannot be used with Duelist's Stance or Warlock's Stance.
Duelist's Stance (Similar to Shield Oath/Fists of Earth): Reduces damage taken 10% and increases Parry Rate 10%. Cannot be used with Fencer's Stance or Warlock's Stance.
Warlock's Stance: Increases magic damage 10% reduces spell speed 20%. Cannot be used with Fencer's Stance or Duelist's Stance.

Enchantment Magic:

Enthunder: Your attacks deal extra Lightning magic damage. Consumes MP overtime. Combo Bonus: Riot Blade occasionally inflicts Paralysis.
Enfire: Your attacks deal extra Fire magic damage. Consumes MP overtime. On Parry: Your next attack inflicts Burn.
Enblizzard: You attacks deal extra Ice magic damage. Consumes MP overtime. Combo Bonus: Rage of Halone occasionally inflicts Slow.

Composure: Parry +40%

Warlock's Whisper: Allows two Enchantments to be active simulataneously. (120s CD)

Unique RDM Job WS: Fast Blade -> Riot Blade -> Sanguine Blade

Sanguine Blade: Potency 150 Combo: 280 Potency Extra Effect TBD

A RDM could off-tank, Physical DPS, or Magic DPS...

[TouchandFeel]

@ Dhex

I too would love to see more of a push for real support classes that add that much needed "little extra something" to parties and I could totally get behind that for Red Mages, but as it is right now Support doesn't have its own classification and gets just lumped in with DPS which I personally am not a fan of.

I've personally been a fan of the sort of wild-card classes in FF as well as games in general.

[ZenBear]

So I was thinking about new classes that could be added and Red Mage was the first that came to mind for me (I love their look and really liked them in FFXI).

I don't feel that the way they worked in FFXI would work that great in FFXIV, so I thought why not make them a new type of magic based tank, sort of a cross between FFXI's Red Mage and Rune Fencer.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Rune_Fencer
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Red_Mage

What do people think about this idea?

I like it. Class req's: Gladiator 30/Scholar 15 (Scholars have healing and dmg spells, so it fits more-or-less). That being said, I think RDM fits better as a DD. Give them DoTs and En-Element weapon enhancements to suit various circumstances.

The next tank class they add will, in all likelihood, be Dark Knight. Samurai could be a possible second.

I don't understand the idea of making Dark Knight a tank class. My first experience with the class comes from FFXI where they were straight DD that couldn't last 10 seconds with mob aggro, and I liked it that way. The stark counter of Warrior/White Mage being a protector vs. a Warrior/Black Mage being a destroyer was thematically beautiful.

Samurai, on the other hand, I would love to see as a tank. Being that they were the "knights" of feudal japan, the parallel to Paladins is obvious. Make them a DEX-based parry tank to give them a distinct flavor.

[Kitru]

I don't understand the idea of making Dark Knight a tank class.

There aren't many "historical" Dark Knights, but those that have in the FF games been very tanky, essentially PLD themed around unholy rather than holy. It wasn't really a Warrior/Black Mage so much as a Warrior/anti-White Mage. The first was Cecil, pre-paladin, in FFIV. After that, you got Gafgarion from Tactics, who was definitely tanky, what with using the same gear loadout as a Knight and having a weapon based drain attack that he could use at-will so that he was almost impossible to kill. The only other major manifestation was in FFX-2, wherein they were, once again, a really durable class (i.e. high defense and craploads of hp) with the ability to toss out a bit more damage by sacrificing some hp.

Dark Knight never had Black Magic (baseline, you could add it as part of the baseline system though, with the stats it had, the damage would suck). The only connection between the two is in the name (Dark and Black). It was always an exceptionally durable (which it needed to be to be able to sacrifice hp to deal damage) and used the same gear loadout as the Knight/Warrior/Fighter (i.e. tank). High hp and defense have always been part of the mechanical makeup.

Now, as to what it would be, I could see it as another GLA job (as a mirror to PLD) where it's DPS, using a sword and shield like Cecil/Gafgarion (likely GLA/THM with MAR as the second additional), but, if it gets its own base class, I highly doubt it would be a DPS job, especially if it uses a 2h sword (which I expect would be the most likely; scythes are already botanist offhands, though that's not going to explicitly stop it from happening since botanists use a hatchet in the main hand) and heavy armor.

The only place where I've ever seen Dark Knight be interpreted as DPS was in FFXI (which also happens to be the only place where it got tied to using Black Magic). Everywhere else it was just one of the various tank-y types.

[Sephirah]

There aren't many "historical" Dark Knights, but those that have in the FF games been very tanky, essentially PLD themed around unholy rather than holy. It wasn't really a Warrior/Black Mage so much as a Warrior/anti-White Mage. The first was Cecil, pre-paladin, in FFIV. After that, you got Gafgarion from Tactics, who was definitely tanky, what with using the same gear loadout as a Knight and having a weapon based drain attack that he could use at-will so that he was almost impossible to kill. The only other major manifestation was in FFX-2, wherein they were, once again, a really durable class (i.e. high defense and craploads of hp) with the ability to toss out a bit more damage by sacrificing some hp.

Dark Knight never had Black Magic (baseline, you could add it as part of the baseline system though, with the stats it had, the damage would suck). The only connection between the two is in the name (Dark and Black). It was always an exceptionally durable (which it needed to be to be able to sacrifice hp to deal damage) and used the same gear loadout as the Knight/Warrior/Fighter (i.e. tank). High hp and defense have always been part of the mechanical makeup.

The only place where I've ever seen Dark Knight be interpreted as DPS was in FFXI (which also happens to be the only place where it got tied to using Black Magic). Everywhere else it was just one of the various tank-y types.

Actually, the first instance of a Dark Knight is Leon in FFII, who has high intelligence and black magic. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/L..._Fantasy_II%29

Dark Knights are still Knights, and thus will be "tankier" than any other non-heavy armor wearing class, but they have always had an emphasis on damage over defense.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Knight

More than likely, the next tank class will be Ninja.

But yes, Ninja is coming. They won’t tell us when though!

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...-Prime-13.html

[Calypsx]

Would prefer Dancer honestly as a tank with high evasion and buffs.

http://youtu.be/C5Lfb5dOQSA?t=1m5s

I mean they are portrayed as these awesome fighters who can gracefully avoid hits while going toe to toe with multiple enemies.

It just screams dodge tank to me. I know it's portrayed as a evasion/support but honestly all the scenes you see them battling in they don't really seem like straight up healers and it would be cool to see a change.

[Ruminate]

Not really. If they're a melee support DPS job, which I would expect, the black magic and melee would be the effects of the attacks and the support functionality would be the equivalent of the white magic. They will, in all likelihood, be something like a melee Bard: TP DPS with 2-3 job abilities that allow them to provide some support and a few attacks that consume MP.

It's important to remember that FFXIV doesn't use the standard mechanical definitions of the classes (Red Mage always had a fuzzy mechanical definition anyways, since it was just "white + black magic" rather than anything truly unique). PLD, mechanically, was always a very durable melee/white magic class, but our PLD doesn't have any non-token white magic capabilities. The *theme* is present, but the previous mechanical construct isn't. Hell, Black Mages used to be the owners of most of the spells that SUM uses but those previous constructs were abandoned to give Summoners *something*.

The *theme* of Red Mage has always been a melee/magic hybrid. It was slightly more durable than the standard mage without ever really being as durable as a "true" melee, not to mention that it pretty much always lacked the strong support capabilities of a white mage and never had appreciable avoidance capabilities (that was always ninja/thief/monk). Honestly, for an avoidance/light armored tank, it would be a lot more likely to see Ninja than Red Mage. It's interesting to think up ways for Red Mage to be a tank class, but it's a stretch to make it a tank rather than the more easily approachable DPS/support construct.

The only "Knight"(localized as Paladin) in non-remake, non-MMO FF games that had white magic was in FF4. In every other FF, "Knights" were frontline fighters with high damage. Infact, "Knights" were the class upgrade to Warriors in the original FF1.

The RDM was a frontline fighter that could cast black and white magic. If the class was a frontline fighter in the previous FF, then they were durable. The fact that they could cast Cure, Regen, Slow, Stop, Protect, Shell, etc. actually gave them an edge in survivability over other frontline fighters.