Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Gardes]

They would need to make changes in the class mechanics for the job to not end up like SCH & SMN.

The game has already done this. WAR modified some skills by adding extra effects to MRD skills. A MRD wouldnt have those wrath effects that are integral to WAR play and the skills to use those wrath points, nor would a second job sprouting from MRD have it.

SCH and SMN also modified base skills and it's not even traited or stanced like WAR did it, iirc. SMN changes carbuncles to egi, SCH changes to fairies. Not only that changed/added the pet skills, it directly changed the ACN's summon skill. They also have different skills using the ACN mechanics of aetherflow in opposing ways.

[Gandora]

The game has already done this. WAR modified some skills by adding extra effects to MRD skills. A MRD wouldnt have those wrath effects that are integral to WAR play and the skills to use those wrath points, nor would a second job sprouting from MRD have it.

SCH and SMN also modified base skills and it's not even traited or stanced like WAR did it, iirc. SMN changes carbuncles to egi, SCH changes to fairies. Not only that changed/added the pet skills, it directly changed the ACN's summon skill. They also have different skills using the ACN mechanics of aetherflow in opposing ways.

What about the stats attribution? Main SMN have little cure because of the INT priority & vice-versa. What good would a full DRK VIT give in case of DPS role? lol

[Gardes]

Main SMN

Exactly.

Plus, they already gated myth gear anyway.

[Exstal]

What about the stats attribution? Main SMN have little cure because of the INT priority & vice-versa. What good would a full DRK VIT give in case of DPS role? lol

Because after becoming the Dark Knight job, they won't be stacking VIT anymore? If you're a DPS, you'll respec. This concern is irrelevant.

[Giantbane]

I just really think its a bad idea because of the Storm Path, Storm eyes, BB combo and MRD class traits. Remember that the game mechanics are tied to the weapons a class is using.

This being said that is why a PLD has acces to Rage of Halone, making RDM or BLU of a GLA30 would give them RoA combo and the class main traits.

If a job such as DRK should be a DD, they would need a new main class to give them a full support in their role, a class that will give priority to STR support traits and things that will enhance the final job, I don't see how MRD could do that at this time let alone GLA.

They would need to make changes in the class mechanics for the job to not end up like SCH & SMN.

The only thing that's goofy is the VIT class traits, ideally those would work differently if you were a DRK. If not, they would (should) balance the damage done around not having access to the STR traits available to other melee dps jobs.

And what's wrong with MRD traits? I believe they stated that if they added dps classes based on tank classes that all the +enmity abilities like the BB combo or overpower would lose their +enmity effect when used by that class. Without the +enmity effect, the BB combo does decent damage on its own, and they have access to damage boosting abilities like maim & storm's eye which are great for a new DPS class. And more specific to DRK, storm's path and blood bath can provide some healing to counteract health lost by darkness/souleater, providing some synergy with those abilities and the iconic damage boosting ability of the FF DRK.

Same with GLD as a base for DRK,RDM or BLU. They have the base damage combo which works ok, and then they have riot blade to restore any MP so they can use their limited MP pool to cast any spells added by these DPS classes.

Sure it would be *nice* if every new job came with a new base class that had its own unique ability set, but they've already stated that they're more focused on adding jobs to existing classes first, only adding new classes when they feel they absolutely need to.

[Gandora]

Darkness/Souleater often increases the damage done/augmented when you have higher hp, so it's possible high hp could be a benefit for a DRK by increasing their max Darkness/Souleater damage.

Other then FFXI, do you have any back up on that argument? Also talking about XI, did you use Souleater often outside of Zerk PT?

Aside from that possibility, they probably need to change it so that the jobs have their own stat allocation separate from the base class.

No kidding?

If they don't there's other ways to look at it. The game sort of encourages you currently to focus on a main job.

Hence why I’m talking about stats allocation... using myself as an example. They should think about it when implanting a new job, especially when that new job could be a potential DD coming from a tank class.

Also, even then, you can sort of get around it. Don't main/alt two jobs in the same class. If you want a tank and dps, and you *must* have a DRK (assuming DRK is based of MRD), then make your tank a PLD. May not be your first choice, but then you get to allocate the stats the way you want to.

This reasoning fail, If I listen to you I shouldn’t level up both SCH & SMN, because if I level up SCH to play as healer I should look for another DD with a separated class, what if I want both 50 & use them as efficiently as I can (leaving out the main job thing?)

You'll probably get further and be less frustrated with it.

No one’s frustrated, I’m here like everyone else to state ideas trying to take everything into consideration, unlike ppl who goes “hohoho RDM/DRK should be a tank because in older FFs....” or “Ohohoh DRK should be a tank because of Souleater using HP to deal damage and the fact they wear heavy armors..”

And what's wrong with MRD traits? I believe they stated that if they added dps classes based on tank classes that all the +enmity abilities like the BB combo or overpower would lose their +enmity effect when used by that class.

Nothing wrong on its own, but for the base of a DD job I don’t see the benefit of enhance VIT 1 2 & 3. Making a new class primarily giving boost to the future job would be more logical and appreciable.
Lets say DRK, something like “enhanced Drain potency” “Enhanced STR” & things such as what you could get from the merit category in XI.

Same with GLD as a base for DRK,RDM or BLU. They have the base damage combo which works ok, and then they have riot blade to restore any MP so they can use their limited MP pool to cast any spells added by these DPS classes.

While this seems logic, you forget something important here. Everything you mention would give little to no viable support to RDM or BLU. It would leave space only for abilities acquired by the job itself to determine it & not the class.
When you look at BLM, they use Blizzard & Fire learned from CNJ and learn Flare on top as a job ability, however they are still supported by what they learned from 1 to 30+ as a CONJ.
When you apply this reasoning to what ppl are saying in this thread, DRK, RDM, or BLU would use tanks base class abilities and then have 5 slot to learn 5 job abilities. To me it sound ludicrous.
I don’t disagree that Riot Blade is a very good example to take into consideration for BLU &/or RDM, but mage classes/jobs already implanted in the game at this time already have way to recover MPs, as RDM is a mage, wouldn’t it be more logical for the job to benefit of these abilities instead?

[BlueMage]

Just add Rune Fencer / Mystic Knight if you want a sword magic tank. Calling it "Red Mage" will just lead to the same old people moaning and complaining like they did in XI because everyone has a different dumb of idea of what a "true" Red Mage is all about. Is it the hat you want? Just give Rune Knight the hat. They gave Bard the hat too.

[Masenken]

How about this, we're thinking in terms of melee weapons. rdm, mtk, whatever, they're magic classes. The important thing is getting the feel of the class right?

Try this. Fully int based. Whether it actually uses its weapon in a traditional sense is another story, but here's my take. In the space of time a melee fighter swings his weapon, the rdm/mtk slings a spell. In essence, it's a war mage.

This settles the issue with stat distribution. Now you can design all of its abilities around the idea that it's a fast spell slinging monster. This leads me to favor the mystic knight over red mage. I just can't imagine red mage as a front line fighter to begin with... at least not as a tank... rdm, to my memory had always had that Jack of all Trades going, but I feel like making it lean towards a dps role would be good for it. In either case, I like the idea of them soaking up elemental damage, but atm so the bosses even deal a lot of damage? Either way I'm spit balling. Seem sound?

[TouchandFeel]

As the original poster, thought I'd drop in to give my updated thoughts on my originally proposed idea based on what everyone has said.

Originally I had intended the proposed Red Mage tank to be a Red Mage/Rune Fencer or Mystic Knight hybrid.
Mainly I just wanted a different style of tank that was based more off of magic than just being a walking colossus sheathed in metal.

I personally feel that what I want could easily be covered by a Runic Knight (based off Celes from FF6)/ Mystic Knight (FF5) class and this would most likely be the best answer to a magic tank.
I could see this class' relying on parry vs. PLD's block, utilizing some sort of magic shield ability that makes damage taken detract from MP instead of HP and a "Runic Blade" ability that mitigates damage and transfers X% of damage taken into MP, thus fueling the magic shield ability. There would be of course other abilities to flesh out and balance the class, but hopefully you get the idea.

As for Red Mage, I still don't feel that a generalist role works for a trinity based mmo game, even if it is classically what the RDM was. I do agree with the idea that RDM should probably be a damage dealer with some support abilities similar to the BRD, but maybe make them the melee version with armor/def more inline with LNC/DRC since they need to be up close and personal and also since RDM could wear heavier armors in the classic FF games, although not the heaviest/best.

I also like the idea that both Runic/Mystic Knight and Red Mage would be Jobs based off a Fencer class that utilizes dueling swords, maybe even with an off-hand parrying dagger that increases Parry chance similar to Shields and block.

Anyways, that is where I am at the moment. Thanks everyone for your ideas and feedback.

[Gardes]

xxx cooldown buff skill
Converts xx% of the Dark Knight's vitality for xx% dmg boost for xx seconds

Essentially cuts down the dark knight's maximum hp regardless of current standing hp for xx seconds for damage boost similar to BfB and when the buff dissipates, the maximum HP will return but his current HP will not change.

Is it solved yet? Should be fun to use and pair with BfB during tumults.