random Duty Finder groups - Square Enix attitude solution INC

[Mychael]

Someone earlier suggested a minimum time--I would say 3-10 minutes, based on the situation. 10 minutes is too long for a primal, but 3 minutes is easily surrendered in a full dungeon.

Also, monitoring the # of times a player votes to kick another is a good way to track those that abuse (i.e. regularly use) the vote. Those that are playing "lottery" with their fourth party member, for example, would probably kick 4 in an hour, vs. normal players that might kick 4 in a week. Having GMs monitor those unusual trends would be a good thing.


Feedback from the kicked player would be nearly-useless; who would say "Yeah, I uh... deserved that kick."?

However, making each member that votes to kick select a reason might be a good deterrent. If people choose different options for "Why are you kicking them," chances are it's not legit (i.e. someone is kicking for afk, someone else is kicking for being a generally bad player).

Asking players to summarize the event to votekick would be a good deterrent even if GMs didn't monitor--people would be afraid to kick for reasons like "they suck" or "his gear is too low," and might think a little bit more before kicking a player.

All-in-all, this wouldn't be an issue if we actually did content with players on our server.

[Critux]

In this post I will attempt to highlight the problems with a vote kick system:

A vote kick system will be great. I'll make sure to always queue with 1-3 friends so I can never be kicked. If someone says something to annoy me, I'll purposefully wait until the last boss and then refuse to heal until they are kicked or leave in order to waste 40 minutes of their time and they will not get any Allagan Tomestones. Even if I use my voting limit, eventually the majority will comply so that they can get their Allagan Tomestones. Remember, I'll always be immune because I queue with 1-3 friends depending on the dungeon size. If someone wants to waste my time by being new, slow, undergeared, low in damage, hard to heal, pulling avoidable trash, dying, or watching the cutscenes then they are gone. If someone who can roll on my gear does not have the item already then I can vote kick them in anticipation of it dropping. I can't wait.

[Rabbio]

On the MVP system: I only saw cosmetic/fluff stuff listed. The players that go out of their way to get that stuff are generally the "laid back" players that are in it for enjoyment. They aren't the caustic "GOGOGO" crowd expecting perfect play in a level 20 instance. Those players care far more about being efficient than getting silly fluff items anyway, so nothing will change...

On the votekick: Thank you for trying your best to minimize risks before implementing this. I stopped healing in WoW after two bad tanks died, blamed me, followed by votekick that everyone in that game just auto-clicked Yes. I don't want to stop healing (and doing dungeons) in this game because of jerks abusing votekick.

[Sotek]

To think... All these problems and extra development time (particularly looking at Crystal Tower) could have been avoided if the developers didn't have such a bipolar stance on game content... They give us Linkshells and Free Companies so we can form groups, then tell us to use the Derpy Finder for all but the hardest of content, they intend to implement a board system so players can easily group up for content with others on their server, only to then make it so you lose out on some potential rewards by making a premade group...

What is funny is, if you make a premade group you can already kick people for being "trolls". People are less likely to be "trolls" because you're on the same server and they may actually get a bad reputation that way, not to mention you can form a good reputation yourself. You're much more likely to be able to organize how your group will handle drops, cutscenes and speedruns. You also have total control over the party set up. Pretty much everything people want from the Derpy Finder is already there, if you don't use the Derpy Finder... The only negative is the extra effort put into finding groups, but that is something the board system may well address, oh and while I'm on that... Imagine if that system has a little tag that goes "You've already cleared easy mode Titan, so you must just be doing it to help people on your server... Have some MVP!", that would be a much better way of rewarding nice and helpful people... Am I going to help newbies clear Ifrit/Titan/Garuda for their first time with the current MVP system? No. I have no guarantee I'll get anything from it using the Derpy Finder completely solo (if someone on my server shouts for the content and I see it, I may help though). I can do dungeon runs for EXP/gear and potentially MVP as well, so I'll be doing that.

[Sargent]

Sorry if it's been suggested but...

How about adding an option to kick a player that's been idle a certain amount of time? That would allow Duty Finder parties to remove people "leeching" without it being used to remove people they don't like.

[Makeda]

How about adding an option to kick a player that's been idle a certain amount of time? That would allow Duty Finder parties to remove people "leeching" without it being used to remove people they don't like.

That's pretty much the only fair way. I'd say 5 minutes - then you get a choice. But not automatic, as that could really mess up 'premade' groups or even PUGs that take a break on agreement.

The only other thing I would go in for is to enable votekick against anyone who triggers whatever profanity filter exists in the game.

In WoW and GW2, its common is to be kicked during or before final boss fights.

Before if they have a guildie coming in. During it the game engine allows it so they get your loot roll (often a faulty assumption, but done anyway).

As a tank, I've only been kicked for refusing to do speedruns. But in WoW, I'd wager half my runs involve somebody being voted out even with me voting no consistently. In raid like content - EVERY boss fight ends with a series of vote kicks to remove the people other people have e-peen issues with. Its the norm for any PUG raid...

vote-kick did more harm to WoW's community than the LFD tool did... in the sense that a gun in a knife fight does more harm...

Its like using a machete for a bandaid, on the theory that if you hack off a limb, at least the scratch is gone...

If its used, I agree with the pulldown list idea - because it forces people to delay and think. Many vote kicks happen because one bad person starts it, and everyone else just clicks the popup to get rid of it.


Lastly a COUNTER idea:

Let us keep in parties even after a run is over. If we want to keep community growing, don't rip apart random DF parties the moment people zone out. Even Guildhests. Quite often you meet someone nice, and never get to see them or group with them again. I meet good people like this way MORE OFTEN than bad people.
- Let us keep parties going, and cross server friend.
- Make it so we don't even need a votekick, by encouraging friend forming...

[ChickensEvil]

There is no need for a timer restriction (except for maybe the whole, you must wait until 5 or 10 minutes have passed from the start to kick someone I am fine with that), there is no need for these worries about people kicking them during the last boss so they don't get loot. In other games that have had this system the rules were simple. You can't kick while in combat. You can't kick while loot is being distributed. Meaning, the only reason someone would kick you is before a boss pull for whatever reason, or after a boss pull and the loot is passed out... for whatever reason. There would be no griefing in this fashion.

The only risks that you face, is kicking people because they are under YOUR threashold of gear, kicking people for watching CS, or kicking people because you want to be a jerk... I would suggest that most likely two of these are very uncommon. Oh no, some random people who I will never see again (most likely) didn't like me as soon as I joined the instance... was there something wrong with me? No... ok then move on with your life. The ONLY one I see being an issue is the CS watchers, and they have ALREADY Mentioned in another post that they realize that there are two groups of people right now, and are working to see about implementing something that would make both groups happy... or at the very least "remove" the issue (we could very well see a "you-can't-skip-anything" option come down the pipe... which would technically fix the problem... it would piss tons of people off... but it would "fix" the problem)

So anyway, the "concerns" about vote-2-kick are largely either blown way off base, or are completely invalid (or will be rendered invalid soon enough). Considering there is a much, much larger issue at hand, and that is people who go AFK for WHATEVER reason... and it happens... a lot... Given the time-limit restrictions on the duties, you NEED something to clear out those who are going AFK (and mind you not everyone is a jerk on this... there are valid things that come up. causing people to go afk or DC)

[Sandovale]

Hi guys, I've seen a good concept for communities as a theory, but never in practice (the point of the concept I think). As a long time WoW player and other games, I felt the vote kick tool was encouraging elitist behaviours, harassment and a very temporary anonymity shield. The ethos "I'll never see this person again, why should I be nice?" seemed very widespread.

Instead I'd like to suggest a "hateban" system, something I've seen mentioned, that is an anonymous system so players can't tell when they are "banned". This means that every player has an upvote/downvote function, with a democracy system in place so that each dungeon gives a change of 1. If every player had a star rating of 1-5 governed by the votes, they could be grouped together. I suck at explaining but here's the basic mechanic. Cont...

[Sandovale]

+25 points = 5 stars, great player, well liked in the majority of dungeons, only ever groups with players at 3 stars or higher.
24-10 points = 4 Stars, good player, inexperienced and liked, groups with anyone 2 stars or higher
9-0 Points = 3 Stars, average/new player, may have issues with communication, behaviour, generally a solid party member but not a constant nice/high performer. Groups with 2 stars or higher.
0- -5 points = 2 Stars, a poor quality player that isn't felt to be nice or helpful and taking the darker path of gameplay. Cannot group with 5 star players.
-6 or less points = 1 star, cannot group with players other than 2 stars. Trolls, intentional Wiping, harassment and bad play. Generally bracketed away from "normal" players and longer queue times.

[Sandovale]

Cont... part 3
This can also work with chat systems, spammers and poor behaviour means those "blacklisted" will only be seen by those Blacklisted, and ignored by the greater community. Over time and random play with others (random rezzes for non-party members, other significant features) this can be considered a "positive" vote, and fix any overall issues. In the same way, anyone found in a lower position wouldn't be penalised unless there are long term issues. In the same way, quitting party as the last person alive could be seen as a "downvote", to avoid people just running from a hard encounter.

I hope this post is clear, I'm rather tired after work. Apologies if any rules were broken or lack of clarity.