random Duty Finder groups - Square Enix attitude solution INC

[nekochen]

Instead of Vote Up which could be potentially exploited, how about a Vote Down? If a player gets enough Vote Down, it triggers a penalty on DF finding time just like leaving a DF dungeon would give you 15 min, but instead, it could potentially be much longer -- say a couple hours. Repeated offender gets 24 hours? Of course, the number of down votes needs to be alot before the penalty kicks in, and it should decay over time (only if no new votes are received in a given period) to prevent possible abuse.. but jerks will still receive them quite fast. It should give them something to think about before making everyone else miserable.

[Jynxii]

None would have a normal que priority (not yet rated), Bronze +10% priority, Silver + 25% priority, Gold 50% priority, Platinum +100% Priority.

In a system where you are not 'forced' to vote, or at least be held accountable, a system like this would be problematic. I'll go through a few scenarios, some already mentioned.
Scenario 1. Tank/Healer gets up voted because well, tank and healer. DPS is forgotten, or seen as competition for DF queues so doesn't get upvoted.
Scenario 2. Someone relatively new enters the dungeon, and doesn't do so well. They aren't a bad player or have a poor attitude, they just aren't top notch. Doesn't get a vote so you don't have to queue with someone 'new/inexperienced'.
Scenario 3. A group of players generally run together, and as such can't up vote each other. The DPS from that group decide to do a random dungeon, and gets even longer queues because they have been unable to attain any votes in the past.

Queues can already be significantly long for some players, and given the almost endless reason a player could choose not to up vote, it would be unfair to have such a system affect something like this, especially if the motivating factor is "I won't vote for you so you have less priority then me!". Sounds incredibly bad, but if you've had to wait in a 90 minute queue consistantly, I'm sure this thought would cross your mind, even if you were the nicest person in the world. I think the material rewards is already bad enough.

[Ryios]

2. Someone relatively new enters the dungeon, and doesn't do so well. They aren't a bad player or have a poor attitude, they just aren't top notch. Doesn't get a vote so you don't have to queue with someone 'new/inexperienced'.

I disagree with this. Personally I don't really go around all the time catering to new people. Why? Because there will always be a new person. It's like working at a job where people constantly quit and you constantly retrain new help, I just don't do it. As such I think it would be ideal if new people got paired with new people. The system I am promoting here would do that overtime. The people that want to be speed runners and not slowed down for cutscenes you name it, would be running together. If they are not it's because they are not deemed worthy and have not been upvoted. Now I'm not saying I don't help new people at all, but I'd prefer to run dungeons with mostly experienced people and let the new people run with new people and figure it out on their own just like we did at game launch.

Secondly, as this system has no penalties atm... All you can do is move up. And dps won't be ignored. People will make it a point to vote for everyone that did ok or didn't cause a problem. As a tank I value a good dps just as well as a healer. DPS checks are in a lot of these encounters, as such DPS will get voted up.

And when it comes to farming philo and myth tomes, nothing matters in the group more than amazing dps. The better your dps is, the faster you clear the dungeon and faster clears = more philo myth in a smaller time frame.

And if you are running with your own group, thats the penalty you take. That's why I said you'd want to use DF to get DPS or a healer or something. As long as 1 person from the DF is in the group they can vote you up and you can vote them up. Or just use DF till you get voted up.

And obviously this setup wouldn't apply to Castrum, Preatorium, or Binding Coil.

[Jynxii]

Secondly, as this system has no penalties atm... All you can do is move up. And dps won't be ignored. People will make it a point to vote for everyone that did ok or didn't cause a problem. As a tank I value a good dps just as well as a healer. DPS checks are in a lot of these encounters, as such DPS will get voted up.
.

I hate to point this out, but not everyone is like you, and if they were, assuming you aren't the aforementioned jerk, a system like this wouldn't even be in place. Also, lets keep in mind the system is their to support good behaviour. Not voting for a newer, inexperienced player who is nothing but polite and grateful to any pieces of advice you give already goes against the intended purpose of the system. (Does this make you a jerk for not using it the way it is intended?). Continuing with your point, does this mean DPS with relic get more up votes because they make the run faster? Even if they are less friendly. It is in your best interest to get the geared player's priority to your run can go smoother/faster.

Let's ignore all the stuff that a system like this will potentially do to friends, LSs and FCs for now, and focus on individual players that are actually more likely to use the DF to form entire random groups. Now while you say you'll up vote DPS players, does this imply everyone will? As a healer my queues are shorter anyway, and as a tank yours would be shorter still, so what effect, or benefit would you get from up voting DPS? What about NOT up voting DPS?

You highlight some of your reasons, but try putting yourself in the shoes of a DPS player. You aren't a bad player or a bad person. You have to wait 60-90 minutes to get into a dungeon and are avidly trying to get your Darklight set so you can move into other content/be more efficient. You finally get into a dungeon, clear it relatively smoothly and then get presented with the option to up vote your fellow players. You don't hesitate to up vote the Tank/Healer because they deserve it right? Now you have to up vote the DPS, but if you do so that brings him closer to having 'queue priority', potentially putting him ahead of you, potentially increasing your queue time. If this vote would potentially add another 10 minutes to your queue time, would you still vote? Would you feel that justice occurred within the system if you weren't up voted because you didn't have a full set of Darklight gear already, despite avidly trying to do so?

I see where you are trying to go with the system, but there are too many different incentives for different players, and far too broad a variety of players to make any 'safe' bets of how they would react/use the system. Even by your own admission you state that you would use it against its intended purposes to benefit yourself:-

Personally I don't really go around all the time catering to new people....I'd prefer to run dungeons with mostly experienced people and let the new people run with new people and figure it out on their own just like we did at game launch... And when it comes to farming philo and myth tomes, nothing matters in the group more than amazing dps...

I'm not trying to make you look like a bad guy, and I'm sure you're not, but the system is to reward good behaviour and foster a more positive community, not separate the haves from the have nots.

[kirottu]

So you can no longer play with your friends? Otherwise you will never receive these points and be able to use them.

[KaiKatzchen]

So you can no longer play with your friends? Otherwise you will never receive these points and be able to use them.

Pretty much, if you want to support your friends/LS/FC then you're out of luck. You get nothing for being a helpful, supportive person in that aspect.

[Fyrebrand]

I love this idea! It has real potential. :-)
So, is this a confirmed thing that the devs said they are going to implement? I'm a little unclear on whether this is an official thing or if it's just the OP's suggestion.


Ha ha ha, is it terrible that my first instinct was to be pessimistic and search for flaws that could be exploited? But it seems pretty solid, since nobody can up-vote their friends, and there's no down-vote. My only concerns are:
1) It might get people to actually play nice in the dungeon in hopes of getting MVP points, but there's nothing to encourage them to actually give out points. If they are aiming for some exclusive mount or gear and want to feel like a special snowflake, they almost have an incentive not to vote anyone else up. This could possibly be controlled by putting a cap on how many up-votes you can receive before you have to give some more out. Even so, once a player has been through the system and gotten what they want out of it, they have no incentive to keep voting others up.
2) Everyone will up-vote the tank or healer, provided they are halfway decent. If DPS is doing its job, they pretty much don't stand out at all. :-S
3) I assume they thought of this, but the votes have to happen only after the dungeon is completed, and they should be anonymous. Maybe even delay the point allocation so that they are all tallied up at the end of the week, so you have no idea who voted you up or not.
4) Don't let players "forget" to up-vote their teammates. Have a window pop up at the end of every dungeon, which does not disappear until the player either up-votes someone from their group or opts out.

Seeing that you cannot up-vote people that you queue with or friends that you enter with, they are punishing players for being loyal to a group and friends. How is it fair to people that have very nice, friendly LS/FC's who like to do runs with their group and help their group get though DF runs?

I really don't see this being an issue. There are still a billion reasons to play with your friends/FC, and nobody needs an incentive to be a team player within those communities. It just happens naturally, and will continue to happen.
If your friends/FC refuse to play with you anymore because they're just out for MVP points, chances are they will have a hard time getting those points at all, and won't be missed anyhow.

[Bulwyf]

My problems with this and several have touched on it:

1. This utterly punishes people who usually group with friends. You will receive almost no votes if you routinely group with friends and no matter how good you are if some random players sees you have very few if any upvotes they will think you are a griefer and leave the instance.

2. This does not do anything to address the major issues of some players who intentionally screw up instances to get people killed or go AFK in an instance. There must be some kind of feature to /kick people out AND to invite someone into an instance.

3. There should be a downvote. The way to stop griefers is to make public how someone votes. If all a griefer does is downvote others on purpose it would show and other players would be warned to avoid this player.

[jbizzi]

snip

This is why you have to be negatively impacted somehow by being a jerk. This whole "everyone gets a participation award" world that we live in, does not work. If you act like a jerk you will get penalized NEGATIVELY and those that act in accordance or politely will be affected POSITIVELY. Those that wish to group with only friends, will not be affected at all, their status will remain neutral while erring on the positive side until jerkiness proves otherwise.

Anyone else hungry for some jerky right now?

[Zakalwe]

This is not a bad idea, depending on how it is implemented. A little benefit for those who play well -- and well with others -- would be a nice thing.

However, this of course will do nothing do deal with the problems of bad behaviour as there will be no negative repercussions for trolling, harassment, and juvenile actions in a DF group. The fundamental problem with DF remains: as long as it is not one-world only, where actions will have consequences and reputations will get made, it will continue to be something that keeps enabling the worst elements of the larger FFXIV community.