Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

[Takamorisan]

Ok every thread I will make this propaganda, lets post on TGS thread and force an answer from the Dev Team, I'm not even sure if they read these forums.
So its empty tears if we just , sorry for being blunt, make theoretical masturbation regarding our flaws.

We need to be efficient on what we want.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...er-LIVE-at-TGS!

The thread, well by all means don't want to discourage the discussion of how to tweak warrior, but if you want something done you need to be listen.

[javid]

WAR is just fine. What we lack in mitigation we can make up in critical dmg + retroactive heals+ and 3/2 the HP. if you want a easily survivable WAR. reset your stat's and put all your 30 pts in vit for easily 8k HP after defiance & iL 70 gear. So what you take 5k dmg on a OP Boss weaponskill... you'll still be alive for 3k more worth of hits; which you can Inner Beast & second wind & Convalescence & Mantra & infuriate to get 40% boost on heals. that's
a 770 potency adjustment on Cure III. And that's for at least 15 sec which should be enough time for at least 2 heals (without critical heal.... you guys have to admit that's more than 5k healing bk all done within 10 seconds)

The class is designed to play differently; which gives it pro's and con's to different playing Tank (Paladin).

[Kiteless]

Except Paladin is capable of attaining much higher effective HP and is easier to heal (in some situations, capable of attaining more than twice the durability of WAR). It is much more survivable than any WAR could ever attempt to be under any circumstances.

Also, Inner Beast is not affected by any healing modifiers. Also note that Warrior healing skills do not generate any enmity, which means using those (especially Inner Beast, which aside from Thrill of Battle is our only decent self-heal, and only usable reasonably speaking on a 60 second cooldown) ends up detracting from your enmity generation, which is itself lowered since healers must pay so much more attention towards healing us, only going to invalidate the main strength of the class, extremely high enmity generation, in the first place.

[javid]

Think of it like this....

a PALADIN is like a turtle.. his life is soft but his shell is a TOUGH BONE (SOLID)

a WARRIOR is like a SHARK! His life is STRONG and his teeth even SHARPER--

you won't fight him long....

[javid]

Inner Beast restores HP (minimium 900HP)... that's why i listed there; just like I listed second Wind (avg 500HP). EHP doesn't matter to tank... it matters to the healer. I admitted that we drink MP; but we live just fine. Our role is not mitigation; Our role is Excessive HP, retroactive HP, & a BUTT load of Dmg to kill the mob faster; which in turns mitigates dmg/time. AND ANYONE WHO TRIES TO SAY


" if the mage was not healing YOU so much they could do DPS and kill faster too!"




.... you suck if you let a healer out DPS you with MP "saved" playing with a Paladin party RATHER then the DPS you'd put out with a WAR party.



(side note: check the numbers again on a 8k HP vs a paladin 5K ... you'd need over 40% mitigation to equate 5k hp= 8k hp [5000/(1-.4)=8000])

Can paladin keep a CONSTANT 40% damage mitigation the WHOLE fight??! I think NOT.

[Kiteless]

EHP doesn't matter to tank... it matters to the healer.

I'd say it matters plenty to a tank. Getting one-shot sucks. Especially when your primary roll is to not get one-shot.

Our role is Excessive HP,

Which PLD's effectively have more of.

retroactive HP,

With self-heals that are either on incredibly long cooldowns, are beyond awful, or a lovely combination of both.

& a BUTT load of Dmg to kill the mob faster; which in turns mitigates dmg/time.

Except the damage we do isn't much more than a Paladin, and the ability to do damage as a tank means nothing if you die in two hits anyway.

(side note: check the numbers again on a 8k HP vs a paladin 5K ... you'd need over 40% mitigation to equate 5k hp= 8k hp [5000/(1-.4)=8000])

Can paladin keep a CONSTANT 40% damage mitigation the WHOLE fight??! I think NOT.

Shield oath and block rate alone should be enough to cover 40%. And that's before we get to any of the cooldowns.

[javid]

one shotted?? which boss you fight hit for more than 5k?? LET ALONE 8K HP vs a warrior??! With enough HP you can't get one shotted....EHP matters with numbers guy.... Just saying EHP doesn't matter until you put numbers into work. Now you suggest a paladin CAN hold out 40% mitigation all fight....well.... unless that paladin has 5001 HP....that's NOT more EHP... 5k HP @ 40%= 8k HP..... WE HAVE 8K HP.... SAME Effective Health Points.


Inner Beast has no cool down. You can get infuriated at the very slowest time possible 40 seconds. I LIED!! If you use NO skills that give you wrath and you just hit hit hit; it will take you 8 HITS to get 5 wrath ... that's 8x2.5 sec= 20 seconds buddy... lets say 30 for kicks.... EACH 30 SEC YOU CAN HEAL YOURSELF FOR AT LEAST 900 hp... that is NOT a long cool down.... not to mention you get a free infuriated every minute...

just on those two steps alone you can heal yourself every 30 seconds & an extra heal every minute

[Kitru]

SAME Effective Health Points.

First off, lemme throw down with some math, since that's apparently what you want.

Your own math is flawed (and the numbers themselves are wrong, but I'll move on to that later). A target with 40% DR and 5k hp has an effective hp of 8333, not 8000, which mean that you're wrong, unless you want to claim a margin of error of 300 hp (which is pretty damned big).

Secondly, for individual burst hits without any CDs factored in, a WAR and a PAL *do* have the exact same eHP. WAR gets 25% additional hp and PAL gets 20% DR, which increased eHP by 25%. The issue is not about these circumstances, however. The issue is in long term healing required and in individual burst mitigation with CDs factored in.

For long term healing required, PAL still has the 20% DR going for it, which is a 25% effective increase in incoming heals (the same amount of healing is acting upon 125% of the amount of incoming damage that another person would take; this is why tanks are tank and not just enmity machines). WAR only manages 15% at best. This means that WAR requires 8.7% more external healing than a PAL does. As to WAR self heals, PAL has a shield, which provides additional mitigation because they can block and reduce incoming damage by 20+% a helluva lot more often than a WAR can, which more than makes up for the self heals that WAR brings to the table (Inner Beast is the only really sizeable self heal and it comes at a very steep cost that actually makes it benefit neutral outside of immediate Infuriate use).

Now, when you look at eHP with CDs active, WARs also get the short stick. All of the PAL CDs are dramatic, effectively guaranteed, increases to eHP: Rampart and Sentinel are DR (20% and 40%, respectively), Convalescence is increased healing received (30%), and Bulwark is a massive increase to shield chance such that it's dramatically more common to block than it is to not (block = 20% mitigation; ~80% chance while active equates to 10% mitigation). WAR CDs are either not guaranteed, only useful over long periods of time, and/or pathetically weak: Bloodbath provides 25% of outgoing damage as self healing (only useful if used on CD since it only provides appreciable benefits over the entire 30 second duration), Foresight's increase in Defense is so marginal thanks to defense's DR that you can pretty much ignore it (20% defense = ~5% physical DR), Convalescence is smaller (WAR goes from 1.15x healing to 1.35x, which is a 17% increase, so it's nearly half of what a PAL gets), and Fleetfoot is unreliable (15% miss chance is nice, but it's nowhere near guaranteed). The only really good tank CD that WARs get is Thrill of Battle, which increases eHP without reducing healing required so it's only effective for the incredibly short term, and, even then, it's weaker than the weakest of the PAL DR CDs (20% increased hp is 16.7% effective DR) while also having a shorter duration.

The only advantage that the WAR CD suite has is that it is almost universally on a shorter CD or has a higher effective uptime, which is useful if you know how to use it. The problem is that the comparative weakness of the WAR CDs is generally heavily overshadowed by the dramatically decreased effectiveness of the CDs. Bloodbath is decent and Fleetfoot is useful if you keep it on CD, but Thrill of Battle and Foresight, the only "true" tank CDs that WARs get, are woefully underpowered compared to a PAL's. The only time that a WAR's will stack well against a PAL is if the PAL doesn't use their CDs (which I'll admit is generally true; most of the PALs I know of barely touch their CDs whereas I abuse the living crap out of my tank CDs, keeping half of them on CD at all times).

just on those two steps alone you can heal yourself every 30 seconds & an extra heal every minute

Inner Beast has an *effective* cooldown of 20 seconds, which is the time it takes to generate 5 stacks of Wrath again. On top of that, it comes at a *very* steep cost: it removes all of your Wrath stacks and, as such, reduces your healing received. Using Inner Beast on CD ends up having Wrath provide you with a mere 7% +healing instead of the +15% that is pretty much always assumed, which means that, for it to be beneficial, it needs to provide 180% of the healing you'd receive from your healer(s) in a single GCD. At 900 hp, unless your healer is only hitting you with 500 point Cures (mine are hitting for 800-900+), Inner Beast on CD is actually going to make it *harder* to heal you. The only time it gets better is if you have multiple major DPS CDs active, which isn't possible all the time since none of those have 100% uptimes and unreliable to boot (Berserk is the only one that is guaranteed so you *have* to crit, which is a coin flip, to make it effective).

The only really effective way to use Inner Beast, using it before immediately using Infuriate to get your stacks back, *is* on a CD: 60 seconds. Getting ~900 hp every 60 seconds is a pittance: when big hits are for in excess of 2k, you're talking about, effectively, 2.5 seconds of 45% or less DR every 60 seconds. You get more out of Convalescence.

[Coramac]

Secondly, for individual burst hits without any CDs factored in, a WAR and a PAL *do* have the exact same eHP. WAR gets 25% additional hp and PAL gets 20% DR, which increased eHP by 25%. The issue is not about these circumstances, however. The issue is in long term healing required and in individual burst mitigation with CDs factored in.

This is individual burst hits only. There are few instances in any MMOs where burst is limited to a single hit rather than a combination of autoattacks with a special that happen in a short time span. Usually, the healers will be bombing the tank for this which will give the EHP edge to the Pal.

[javid]

First off, lemme throw down with some math, since that's apparently what you want.

Your own math is flawed (and the numbers themselves are wrong, but I'll move on to that later). A target with 40% DR and 5k hp has an effective hp of 8333, not 8000, which mean that you're wrong, unless you want to claim a margin of error of 300 hp (which is pretty damned big).


Getting ~900 hp every 60 seconds is a pittance: .

you're correct it's 8.33k EHP (4% error is a huge deal...)

I can tell if we sit down break this down one skill at a time; we'll get somewhere. but trying to debate every skills' potential against another all at once won't be done fairly.

So since you ended with Inner Beast lets revisit that one.