Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

[HiirNoivl]

The disparity is in the amount of external healing required (which you seem to be incapable of actually understanding).

That is an issue related directly with VIT stacking.

how many heals does it take to fill the HP of a PLD with 5500 HP when he gets hit with something that hits him? Once.

How many heals does it take to fill the HP of a VIT Stacked, STR starved WAR that has 8000 when he gets hit with the same thing and cures himself? Infinity plus 1!

The urge to heal and heal and heal on WAR comes from the fact that WARs are not self curing for enough when they have a huge pool of HP.

Vitality stacking, without STR supplementing, puts the weight of the mitigation on the WHMs. Which is the wrong thing to do. When you have a smaller pool of HP, your self cures cure for a higher percentage of your HP and your WHM only has to spend 1 cure to fill you up.

Except that you won't. You'd recover *maybe* half to one-third of the damage, assuming you get a crit *and* you have multiple DPS CDs active, by using Inner Beast.

I Crit a lot. Critical Hit Rate Materia and Accessories increase my Critical Hit Rate by a measure unseen in other classes simply by virtue of the bonuses granted by Wrath and Defiance. Even when i don't try, when I parse I get a regular 15% critical hit rate. You'd think that I would only get that much by keeping Wrath V up on a constant basis and having Internal Release up on a constant basis. But the reality is, I only use Internal Release if Berserk is down and I don't hold Wrath V. Even the calculator over at Dancing Mad says that I should have 11% Critical Hit Rate at a maximum! So why is my Critical Hit rate so high? Why is it not Less than 10%? Hiir Noivl does not hold on the Wrath V. She doesn't use her Internal Release a whole lot. So what gives?

I'll leave that for you brainier people to figure out.

Except that, even if you're using said abilities that buff Inner Beast on CD, you're never going to have 100% uptime. Inner Beast is only an effect self-heal every 60-90 seconds. A Shield is effective *at all times*. Uptime matters.

That's weird because I'm clocked to hit Wrath V every 12-15 seconds... But I must own some sort of Time machine. I'm curious as to what your definition of an "effective" self heal is. As far as I'm concerned, if it lands, it's effective at curing me to from 1100 to 2900. At what point do those numbers become ineffective?

[Kitru]

That is an issue related directly with VIT stacking.

No, it's not. It's an issue directly related to Defiance. Defiance provides only 15% +healing. Inner Beast, even when used optimally along with all of a WAR's other self healing, only effectively break even with 15%. The fact that WAR only gets 15% +healing means that there is an 8.7% required healing disparity.

You've yet to prove that Inner Beast provides *any* more than a break even, over time, with 5 stacks Defiance. In fact, there's a *lot* of evidence that shows that, over time, it's a net loss. To actually be equal with a PLD, a WAR would need to be able to generate more 9% of the total output of the healers in your group on a constant basis *on top of what is already accomplished with Inner Beast and Bloodbath*: the existing 9% would be required to equalize the 15% +healing with the 25% needed and the additional quantity on top of that is required to break even with block chance.

[HiirNoivl]

You keep raising the bar don't you? lol

Wrath V 15% healing is again shifting the mitigation over to the WHMs. There's no way in Eorzea that their heal plus my heal = 15% more healing when I heal 20% of my HP in a single shot with just Maim up. Inner Beast beats Wrath V every time unless your Inner Beast is gimped.

I'd like to see this *lot* of evidence that Inner Beast = Wrath V coming from a WAR that actually hits an Inner Beast over 1500 with any regularly. Because I can tell you that the same people that hold Wrath V are the ones stacking Vitality.

Because if they didn't stack Vitality they wouldn't be so dependent on their WHMs!

**************

I HATE THESE FORUM RESTRICTIONS... wrote all this stuff and it gets erased because... "Your level's not high enough." *tableflip*

*sigh* Anyway, Dhex

I'm not angry at you because you don't pretend I'm some drooling delusional idiot. I know Blood bath doesn't do much... Berserk is best used in an Unchained state so I never use it with Bloodbath, only Inner Beast. I only use Bloodbath with Unchained when i'm really pushing damage, like on the Heart Phase of Titan or on the phase right before Garuda does Aerial Blast and before Sisters.

However, where we have a disagreement, which I've shared with you before is the "loss" WARs suffer from mitigating their own damage.

If you heal yourself with Inner Beast for 1500, that is in addition to the healer's 1500 afterward. Sure, the healer could have healed you twice for a greater amount had you held on your Wrath V (1750 + 1750 = 3500) But like I said, that's shifting the mitigation load on to the Healer and is a stressor.

PLD mitigates damage, but a lot of WARs do not mitigate damage even with the tools they have. I've noticed this. They'll hold hate and do damage, but they'll take damage and turn to the WHM and say heal me.

And the WHM is just... "OOM, PLD please." You need to use Inner Beast for the health of your party, not only for mitigation sake through self healing... but also mitigation's sake by using your damage cooldowns. If you're holding Wrath V you're not unchained and you're doing less damage than a PLD.

RE-EDIT: I think you're mistaking Storm's Eye's effect as well. Storm's eye doesn't effect the cures you receive, it lowers the cures that mobs like Garuda receive when they're getting healed. So it's even worse than you figured there.

* * * * *

These number ridden posts give me a headache. They say that you should only be healing "This much" but it's so much more than that. I don't know why you left out Thrill of Battle, you left out Second Wind, which is actually a good amount too considering it scales with Attack power...

Like I said, when I'm doing an okay job, I heal for about 10% of all the healing done for me. I bet if I pushed it, I could get higher. I'll just keep pushing.

Maybe you're right and this shouldn't be so difficult as it is. As it is anyone looking at your post would feel intimidated at the supposed level of perfection playing WAR adequately requires and that's truly a shame.

[Derza]

You keep raising the bar don't you? lol

Wrath V 15% healing is again shifting the mitigation over to the WHMs. There's no way in Eorzea that their heal plus my heal = 15% more healing when I heal 20% of my HP in a single shot with just Maim up. Inner Beast beats Wrath V every time unless your Inner Beast is gimped.

I'd like to see this *lot* of evidence that Inner Beast = Wrath V coming from a WAR that actually hits an Inner Beast over 1500 with any regularly. Because I can tell you that the same people that hold Wrath V are the ones stacking Vitality.

Because if they didn't stack Vitality they wouldn't be so dependent on their WHMs!

Ok lets put it this way... You need 25% more heals than a paladin (not counting wrath stacks... that will be factored in as i go)... if you use inner beast every time its up that puts you at keeping about 7-8%+ healing from wrath stacks - that means your inner beast has to heal for 17-18% of all incoming heals to be equal to paladins 20% damage reduction. So lets take a 20 sec time period ( roughly what it takes to get back to full stacks ) say your inner beast averages 1200 heal. that means in a 20 second period you could only take about 7200( 1200 is roughly 17% of 7200) in heals to break even with what a paladin has from just the 20% reduction. So in other words if you take more than 360 dps(7200 heals needed/20 seconds) your mitigation is worse than a paladin with no CD's used... 360 dps is not very much... If you take less then 360 dps you are better off than a paladin(that uses no tanking cooldowns).

Using your number of 1500 inner beast heal would mean the DPS taken would need to be less then 450 dps... Remember this is not counting any of the paladins cooldowns and I think its pretty obvious the paladin ones are better than the ones warrior gets for mitigation.

So basically the threshold for when paladin surpasses warrior in tanking ability is somewhere around 300-450 incoming dps (when considering all cooldowns from both classes). So as incoming damage increases warriors get less and less viable - hints why they are being avoided for Coil content (where i believe the auto attack on bosses alone = around 450-500 dps not counting any special skills).

[dandelions]

HiirNoivl,

Hate to break it to you, but you are not a special snowflake. You'd actually be a detriment as a tank to most FC groups with your inability to put your ego aside.

At an extremely basic level, before CD's are ever factored in, Warriors require more healing for less of an effect; with the inability to make up that gap through self-heals. This is not something player skill can ever overcome; it is a hard limitation of the rules we play by. This deficiency affects the entire group, especially healers who now have less time to heal others or adjust to boss mechanics due to being stuck in casting animation more frequently. A Warrior brings nothing to the table to make up for the deficiency as a Tank role; Paladin/Warrior dps is a common subject, yet both are extremely similar and more importantly largely irrelevant compared to the numbers real DPS classes can put out.

Even if Warrior possessed the ability to make up the gap, reactive self-heals (based on 2.5 second GCD's and off GCD ability's between) will always be worse than instant on-hit damage reduction. And with the current Warrior ability lists and mechanics, it takes multiple off GCD abilities combined with on GCD abilities to even produce one worthwhile reactive self heal, which then gimps the healing deficiency further until you can build 5 more stack of Wrath.

[Zyrusticae]

Here are some ideas I've seen bandied about to fix warriors - at least, the ones I liked:

Giving defiance 10-15% passive mitigation OR increased healing, making Inner Beast heal amount increase based on the damage taken within the last five seconds, increasing the heal potency of Storm's Path considerably (to the point where it can let the healer drop a heal cast, for example), making Steel Cyclone provide a damage shield based on how many targets were hit, and/or giving Defiance a passive lifesteal... any combination of these would go a looong way to making up for Warrior's deficiency as a tank class, I think.

And what about buffing Foresight to not be completely bloody useless? That'd also be nice...

[Dhex]

Idea: Token based damage nullification.

How about an ability by which you can convert some of your Wrath Stacks to "Fury Motes" - Fury Mote : Each mote consumes and redirects 1 attack away from the Warrior. Up to 5 motes can be held. Duration 30sec Cast: Instant Recast: 20s Only available when Wrath are available. Consumes all Wrath stacks.

You can have Wrath V and Fury Mote V active simultaneously via -> Combos>Fury Mote Conversion>Infuriate.

Similar to Ninja tanking in FFXI using Utsusemi.



*Edit* Don't hate me for this!! <3 Just an idea...

This would (imo) maintain the unique style of WAR while giving it some true mitigation that makes Wrath utility active.

[Duelle]

At an extremely basic level, before CD's are ever factored in, Warriors require more healing for less of an effect; with the inability to make up that gap through self-heals. This is not something player skill can ever overcome; it is a hard limitation of the rules we play by. This deficiency affects the entire group, especially healers who now have less time to heal others or adjust to boss mechanics due to being stuck in casting animation more frequently. A Warrior brings nothing to the table to make up for the deficiency as a Tank role;

The disconcerting thing is that if Rein's translation is to be believed, Yoshi-P has said that in a developer's environment WAR is actually "very strong". What that actually means is up to interpretation, but it could be taken to lean towards Hiir's "skill" argument.

Now I'm a little worried.

[Ruminate]

The disconcerting thing is that if Rein's translation is to be believed, Yoshi-P has said that in a developer's environment WAR is actually "very strong". What that actually means is up to interpretation, but it could be taken to lean towards Hiir's "skill" argument.

Now I'm a little worried.

It could also mean they're getting a buff. The developer's environment is technically 2.1. He also said this right after: "I think you’ll find them out soon they are really strong"

[Kaalan]

The disconcerting thing is that if Rein's translation is to be believed, Yoshi-P has said that in a developer's environment WAR is actually "very strong". What that actually means is up to interpretation, but it could be taken to lean towards Hiir's "skill" argument.

Now I'm a little worried.

It's obvious that WAR won't stay weak. They're not stupid and stubborn to a point they would compromise their own game.
In every MMO, you have that class that suck big time early in the game and that suddenly :
- Get to a lvl of gear that reveale their true power and they become extremely op
- Get new lvl and thus new skill completing their kit and they become extremely op
- Get buffed like hell because people whined all over the forums and they become extremely op

It's usually the "assassin" base class but I can see that happen verry well with WAR and I think that, over the time, we'll get a little bit of those 3 points.
WAR Does seem to scale really really well. With a full AF+1 you have the luxury to grab DPS acc and this will do a lot of good to our DPS (finally) and self heal.
Looking at our kit, it verry much look like the foundation of the job, waiting for some concrete (a couple of skills) to hold all of it together and become extremely solid (OP)
And obviously, the job has some major flaws that will most likely be issued in the 2.1 patch with some buff and/or revamp.

I'm really confident that, once 2.1 is here, we'll be really OP and people will cry for some nerfs. Good thing is, by the time 2.1 is out, I'll have my full AF+1 gear on my WAR, and me and people that sticked to it like that will probably be on top of Eorzea.