Market Boards need to work like FFXI AH

[MistressAthena]

Yes people in here complaining want less competition and the ability to control prices easier. Without seeing the current sell values the buyer is at a huge disadvantage as they cannot see what the seller is willing to part at it with. You are spot on that undercutting is a good thing, and if they undercut the lowest price by more than few guild say 1k. Buy it and profit off of it.

And the person saying supply and demand is the default stupid answer for people who don't know economics.....It is one of the largest driving forces in an economy. Part of the problem, and note part, is most definitely an extreme amount of supply and the fact that there is infinite supply. When there is not 200 listings of ore on the ah, most of them stacks of 99 the prices will go up and they will stabilize around a value both buyers and sellers agree on.

It's not so much about having more or less control, as its about keeping prices stable and "fair". There are a million gears that go into the economic machine of real life. How many farmers are planting x crop, what's the season is, place, time, How much of X produce is getting to x area, and thousands of other tiny implications all of which make up the supply/demand, and economic machine. 99% of which doesn't exist in the game.

For my final note: Lets put game logic into the real world shall we? To help enlighten and explain exactly what I'm talking about, and why the 2 can't really be compared, or talked about side by side.

Say a car dealership in the real world is selling cars. They have to go through all the things they do normally, including all the costs, to get those cars on the lot to sell.

Now lets say I come along, and I'm getting those cars literally for free by doing odd jobs for people which take up only about a few minutes of my time. I'm getting just as many cars as he has every day, and selling them for 80% less. Now I setup shop right next to him. How long do you think he's gonna last? Not long. Nor can he simply buy me out, as I'll be back tomorrow with just as many cars at 80% off of his price..

Doesn't work does it?

You can't say "economics" works in this game the same as it does irl, as the situations are as different as black and white with extreme variables not taking part in the equations.

FFXIV AH has proven to keep prices stable, yet still fluctuating to a degree depending on supply/demand, and is still fair to everyone involved. Plain and simple.

[Bizzybeast]

Either you chose to ignore the meaning of my post or you did not understand it. Every Item in the game has an stated value outside the market that does not change. It is worth Xgil. Its market value depends on many factors if you think your car is better, good for you, the market will decide that. What was the point of quoting my post and saying absolutely nothing but writing in a terrible manner.

I quoted you, but replied on the subject. I do apologize if you felt intimidated, its apparently my posting style. Most think its humorous, some think its horrible because I rarely avoid calling bullshit on things and doing so in a funny way.


Anyway your post was just more of the same, a rehash of something already said 50 times. Also you gave into the urge to go with lame real life analogies about specific cars and what you think they should be worth. Eventhough you had the sense to say "about" or "around", to indicate guesstimation of something unguessable..

WHICH WAS MY ENTIRE POINT. We cannot sit here and talk about how it cost 4,000 $ to remodel our bathrooms, and that is why Iron Ore has a market worth of X.

STOP DOING IT AND I WONT MOCK YOU!!!

And this Mistress guy just wants to talk and talk and talk, like the forum is some World Series Of Arguing LinkShell. He knows the problems with FF11, but still insists it would be the best system for ff14.

He is wrong because he refuses to think of this from all angles. I am right because the way the system is, is better, and until its changed I will continue to be right.

If he or anyone doesnt want to discuss it properly, I have no problem retreating to the glaring truth.

[Kazamoto]

I quoted you, but replied on the subject. I do apologize if you felt intimidated, its apparently my posting style. Most think its humorous, some think its horrible because I rarely avoid calling bullshit on things and doing so in a funny way.

You are not funny, your posting style is not humorous. You are a bully, and at this point I strongly believe you are intentionally being ignorant in some attempt to troll this thread.

The title of this thread is "Market Boards need to work like FFXI AH"

You disagree with that statement, we get it.

You continually say that the 14 system is better than the 11 system because reasons. But never seem to explain what those reasons are, other than 'newer' or 'didn't think of all the angles'.

We have gone round and round about why, with real world examples the rampant undercutting we see is harmful to the economy. Yet you refuse to understand how a parallel works.

NO ONE is saying "4,000 $ to remodel our bathrooms, and that is why Iron Ore has a market worth of X" (With dollars, the $ goes before the number by the way, should say $4000.)

What we are saying is, in a real economy, it takes TIME and Materials to produce a good or a service. When people undercut so extensively they are usually ignoring the time investment or materials cost.

We get it, you disagree with this idea, move on.

[bwalker36]

........

Intimidated....Not so much. The reason a person chooses to bring in a real world objects is because it tends to related to people more and allows them to digestthe information easier....logic which is lost on you. It's a simple fact that market price is determined by the market....You know that thing that includes buyers and sellers (and the govt in real life, but like you said this is not real life). It is a fact that items have a stated value and a relative/market value, there is no changing that.

While I don't agree with the op he is at least polite unlike you. Your posts are "angry" and I think I agree with Kazamoto you are just trolling.

@Mistress

I'm assuming you meant XI in your last post . I don't believe the undercutting has anything to do with the fact that you can see current listing prices. It has more to do with the fact that the crap getting undercutting to death has just an enormous amount of supply. Looking at fleece as an example it seems to stay relatively stable around 4-500 regular and like 600 hq. High supply items will always fluctuate more than others. I find my crafting armor to be relatively stable and looking at the price history only find a few that were marked out of the ordinary as I look at that to make sure i'm not going to high.

[Sinbios]

Edit: Also whats up with the hostility here. It's like you guys have a personal stake in this lol.

Cuz Bizzybeast for some reason likes to troll every market-related thread with his condescending yet at the same time confused, meaningless, and mostly irrelevant rhetoric. It's pretty aggravating that not only does he not seem to grasp basic economic principles, but he turns around and tries to force his own twisted understand of how the economy should work on you. Of course if you point out obvious flaws with his views it's because you are clearly the equivalent of a small child or exceptionally intelligent goldfish and as such simply don't understand his grand vision, and if he just explains it to you one more time you'll realize your mistake. *eyeroll*

I'll stop here as I see Kazamoto has written the rest for me. Back to the issue at hand, yes rampant undercutting is an issue at the moment, but I don't think blind auction is the way to fix it; it would simply make the market even more inefficient than it already is. Obscuring the price of listings doesn't help an item reach its true price as dictated by supply and demand, rather it does the opposite and stagnates the price by keeping it at the level it has been selling historically. This makes the price slow to react to changes in supply and demand because people can only able to see the historical prices and don't have enough information to determine if the item would sell at a different price point, so the only thing they can do is bid/list at the price it's always sold at.

The real solution is to have a two-sided exchange just like in any real life market. Sellers place ask orders at the price they would like to sell at, and buyers place bid orders at the price they're interested in buying at. This makes the state of the supply and demand very apparent and the price quickly and easily converges to the "true" value. This completely removes the issue of undercutting because you can only undercut so much before you're at the bid wall, and you won't be "driving the price into the toilet" as has been said of current undercutting practices because that'll be the actual price people are interested in buying the item at.

Also an oft-cited reason for undercutting is that some sellers want to make quick sales, and with an exchange like this they can instantly sell their goods by filling an order on the bid side without moving the price on the ask side at all, removing the need for other sellers to constantly adjust their prices. This is part of why the price of the item will converge quickly to the true price and stay react fluidly to changes in supply and demand, because the supply can move to meet the demand and vice versa.

Of course, quick convergence to the true price may not please some of the people seeking market reform as their issue is mainly that things they were able to sell at high prices previously are now priced much lower due to changes in supply and demand, especially as I believe many things on the market are currently overpriced by two or three fold. However I think this will be healthier for the economy in the long run enabling fast and efficient trading at prices close to items' true worth, compared to the sorry situation we have now where buyers are either paying exorbitant prices or can't buy the item they want because they have no other way of influencing prices downwards, and sellers can't get their items to sell without constant and aggressive undercutting because all they can do to facilitate a transaction is hope they happen to have the lowest priced listing when a buyer commits to buy.

[bwalker36]

....Too long to quote

Well said. I would love to see that, just like GW2. But I don't see it happening because they would have to rework the current system completely. Both Bid/offers must be on the some board and that would make retainers irrelevant other than storage. Either way we can dream

[MistressAthena]

Intimidated....Not so much. The reason a person chooses to bring in a real world objects is because it tends to related to people more and allows them to digestthe information easier....logic which is lost on you. It's a simple fact that market price is determined by the market....You know that thing that includes buyers and sellers (and the govt in real life, but like you said this is not real life). It is a fact that items have a stated value and a relative/market value, there is no changing that.

While I don't agree with the op he is at least polite unlike you. Your posts are "angry" and I think I agree with Kazamoto you are just trolling.

@Mistress

I'm assuming you meant XI in your last post . I don't believe the undercutting has anything to do with the fact that you can see current listing prices. It has more to do with the fact that the crap getting undercutting to death has just an enormous amount of supply. Looking at fleece as an example it seems to stay relatively stable around 4-500 regular and like 600 hq. High supply items will always fluctuate more than others. I find my crafting armor to be relatively stable and looking at the price history only find a few that were marked out of the ordinary as I look at that to make sure i'm not going to high.

I agree that a major problem is the fact that the game literally hands everything to you. I just don't think this will change, and to put some kind of bar on under cutting, I vote for the FFXI AH. While yes it may have problems, lets be realistic, its less problems than the current situation. That's just how I feel, and I believe it would work for the most part.

[bwalker36]

I agree that a major problem is the fact that the game literally hands everything to you. I just don't think this will change, and to put some kind of bar on under cutting, I vote for the FFXI AH. While yes it may have problems, lets be realistic, its less problems than the current situation. That's just how I feel, and I believe it would work for the most part.

I will agree to disagree with you . Either way I don't think we are going to say any change other than perhaps the starting value of an item. They really should do vendor +20% that way people who don't pay attention for items with very small spreads don't ruin that market.

[MistressAthena]

I will agree to disagree with you . Either way I don't think we are going to say any change other than perhaps the starting value of an item. They really should do vendor +20% that way people who don't pay attention for items with very small spreads don't ruin that market.

No! We must never Agree!.... Just kidding, so long as they put in any type of change that fixes it. I don't care what it is.. Either FFXIV AH, or remove like 95% of all the gear from the quests..

[MentalPoison]

You are not funny, your posting style is not humorous. You are a bully, and at this point I strongly believe you are intentionally being ignorant in some attempt to troll this thread.

The title of this thread is "Market Boards need to work like FFXI AH"

You disagree with that statement, we get it.

You continually say that the 14 system is better than the 11 system because reasons. But never seem to explain what those reasons are, other than 'newer' or 'didn't think of all the angles'.

We have gone round and round about why, with real world examples the rampant undercutting we see is harmful to the economy. Yet you refuse to understand how a parallel works.

NO ONE is saying "4,000 $ to remodel our bathrooms, and that is why Iron Ore has a market worth of X" (With dollars, the $ goes before the number by the way, should say $4000.)

What we are saying is, in a real economy, it takes TIME and Materials to produce a good or a service. When people undercut so extensively they are usually ignoring the time investment or materials cost.

We get it, you disagree with this idea, move on.

Some of you need to realize Bizzy is positively more entertaining then you. Deal with that fact. He is the only person in this whole thread that made me even remotely laugh. The rest of you guys keep going into weird metaphors, analogies, and real life examples. He mocks you for it and you dont even get that he is doing it and lots of people just laugh at you/it without posting.

No one with even the mildest of intelligence is listening to people blather on about real world examples, how that means ANYTHING in a video game, and most especially how tired your argument is. This thread is filled with ideas that are not good enough to take off and it stems from thinking FF11's bad system would even remotely function in FF14.

Not everybody's server is as terribly impossible to make gil in as yours and honestly im convinced some of you are just bad at it. Anyway im sorry to have chimed in, but I knew Bizzy was done here and probably not going to waste his time retorting this gibberish anymore.

I wanted to help him out by explaining how most just pass this thread, and its terrible idea, right on by for the suggestion posts that are worth thinking about and discussing.