Monks very weak. Need rebalance

[Cynric]

I disagree; I find the Monk to be extremely simple to play compared to the Dragoon.

I personally find everything in this game to be relatively simple. But i'm not using how I feel about the classes as a comparison, I'm just comparing them to each other, you find dragoon harder. But everyone tracks DoT's and debuffs/buffs, that's not really anything specific to one class. Track boss mechanics? Everyone should learn the boss mechanics regardless of class. Knowing when to pop CD's and not too. That also is not specific to dragoon.

What you just posted is how you should be playing every class, Tracking DoTs, learning mechanics, Knowing when to use a skill off the GCD and when to pop a CD. Absolutely none of that aside from the skill names is specific to dragoon.

The only thing that makes Monk more difficult at least IMO, is if a skill disconnects you can lose GL 3, so that requires some thought and execution. If you lag on Dragoon and lose a buff or disconnect on a buff skill. You can just use the skill again to get the buff back, Monk only really has it that easy for Twin Snakes.

The rest of the games classes are pretty basic. The only two classes even decently challenging to an average player should be Monk and Dragoon. I'd say Dragoon having such a long rotation and position requirements come first as a Difficulty barrier, where as the MMO basics you mentioned are part of every class.

With Monk it's GL3 Upkeep, and position requirements, along with the same MMO basics of buff/dot/debuff upkeep.

Either way you look at it every single class in the game is simple MMO basics and reading your skills. DRG and MNK just happen to be more difficult in comparison since they actually require a bit of reflex.

[EasymodeX]

The decision for CT and Demo are fundamentally different. With Demo, you can simply check right before you use it, and then NOT use it -- replacing it with Snap Punch. You can then use it next cycle, ~4 seconds later.

With CT, you have to make that decision ~7-8 seconds ahead of time. Not 1s ahead of time. And, you can't just randomly replace it with Full Thrust. An error to delay will cause a loss of Disembowel uptime of about 7-10 seconds (~82p) and CT by 7-10 seconds (~50p). An error to execute will cause a repeated CT rotation, which is around a 90p loss.

The core reason why the Monk is easier to execute is that they do not have rigid combo chains. If TOD is about to drop, you can literally just press the button on reflex. DM is almost equally as free. Doing anything similar on a DRG would break combo chains. You have to literally plan your attacks out ahead of time -- none of which is required on the Monk. You just press the next button.

Edit: At the of the day, "ease" is subjective, but I think the mechanics weigh in favor of the Monk having an easier time executing once you practice them a bit.

[pompey_dan]

This is what i feel about both monk and dragoon in present endgame:
1. That to be able to perform DRG at a LOW level is alot easier than being able to execute monk at a low level but to be able to perform DRG at a high level is harder than being able to execute monk at a high level.
2. DRG can do more INITIAL burst damage if cool down's are up for say 30 seconds every 1.5 minutes, but monk can do more burst damage over a period of say 1-2 minutes.
3. monk does more single target dps however runs into TP problems after about 2 minutes whereas a dragoon does not, so I would say single target for 5+ minutes they are fairly balanced.

I would be interested to see how much dps a monk can do on a training dummy over a period of 5 minutes, compared to a dragoon over the same period of time. A while before i got some gear upgrades I was approx 270 dps for drg after 2 minutes and around 260~ after 5 minutes but that was with some mistakes. Compared to that video of the monk doing 300 dps after 2 minutes but being out of TP afterwards.

[EasymodeX]

Yeah after running my Monk on Titan and AK, I noticed that using Fracture at all was pretty rough on the TP bar. Using Impulse Drive sounds even worse for any sort of sustained DPS. As it is I've stopped using Fracture except in concert with BFB/IR.

[Cynric]

Snip.

First off none of this changes that knowing buff/DoT/debuff up keep is an MMO basic and present on every single job period. I don't even know why you're just comparing Demolish since I said specifically every class has to deal with this.


Second, if ToD is about to Drop and GL is about to fall off, you pick GL, by picking GL you lose your DoT, of course right after you refresh you can put it back up, but if a fight caused you to move or get behind in stances, you have to deal with the loss of your DoT or risking losing GL3. Next , if you do refresh the DoT after refreshing GL you absolutely must twin snakes that cycle, if as a Monk you don't know that, then Twin Snakes will drop off, if you don't pay attention and decide to true strike, you lose twin snakes. All possible damage losses

If you do a DoT and it disconnects, you have to skip that DoT for an entire cycle. Another damage loss.

If we took both Dragoon and Monk, and put them on a tank and spank with no extra mechanics, Monk would have an easier time keeping itself up, if we then add the phase shifting mechanics and presence of AoE's that cause the loss of GL3 on less skilled Monks , where DRG will also lose it's buff's it will be much more detrimental to the Monk if he isn't up to par in terms of reflexes. Because even if you take a DPS loss, the Monk will also take a DPS loss from either a DoT falling off, or GL3 falling off. And losing GL3 is huge mid fight.

You may think a strict rotation is a bad thing. But at least you can memorize it and auto play the class

Monk also has no way to dump enmity at all, but that's another issue entirely. I mainly mentioned this point because if a Monk crosses the threshold they must disconnect from the fight entirely or risk dying, or even in some cases(cleave) kill the whole raid. Dragoons have a way to prevent this and then continue doing their job. Where as if you hit #1 Enmity on Monk you might as well sit down till someone passes you.

[EasymodeX]

First off none of this changes that knowing buff/DoT/debuff up keep is an MMO basic

Keeping up CT on a DRG requires read ahead 7 seconds in advance with variable delays to adjust the timing. For a MNK, that is 0.5 seconds with no variables.

Second, if ToD is about to Drop and GL is about to fall off, you

There's no decision there. If there is fight instability, you DK-TW-SP, end of story. They don't even require positions unlike the DRG buffs, so you are never caught between a general mechanic and maintaining the buff. You just keep pressing buttons.

if you hit #1 Enmity on Monk you might as well sit down till someone passes you.

That's not really a decision. You just stop pressing buttons.

But like I said, it's subjective. If pressing buttons is harder for you, the Monk may not be as easy. If anticipating semi-dynamic timing 7s ahead in a boss fight is more challenging, the Dragoon may be more difficult.

[ChaozK]

Cant we just leave this sort of discussion out? Both classes are demanding when you want to play them to their fullest potential and both can be simplified to a point were they are easy and still perform decently.

I love the hell out of playing both melees.

[Cynric]

But like I said, it's subjective. If pressing buttons is harder for you, the Monk may not be as easy. If anticipating semi-dynamic timing 7s ahead in a boss fight is more challenging, the Dragoon may be more difficult.

It's clear you think Dragoon is hard. I'm glad we can have differing opinions on which class would be harder for the average player. I'm also glad you can make leading remarks like this one. However I could technically say all you have to do is auto play dragoons rotations and only hit buttons so long as you remember what to hit. Thus all you are doing is "hitting buttons"

Every class as I've said.. 3 times now? Is simply reading your skill, hitting the button, and using basic MMO knowledge. On Monk you just have to worry about disconnects from movement and dropping one very important buff. They both have similar levels of difficulty in my eyes. You're just trying to argue Dragoon is so much harder for whatever reason. When Dragoon isn't really any harder of a class. And your only argument is for it being harder is what? Looking at your Buff bar and figuring out what skill rotation to do? Checking the target bar for DoT's and Debuffs? The same thing every single class DPS/Heal/Tank has to do anyway.


Once again keeping up a buff is basic game mechanics, whether you have to look 7 seconds ahead or 30 seconds ahead. You still know you have to put that buff on at that time. This is a basic principle on every single class in the game.

My final point about enmity as I said was just something I said to be there and was a completely different thing entirely. I never said it was a decision. It does add a level of difficulty to the class but it isn't a decision to make. Either you stop attacking or you die. The point I was trying to make was that not having some way to lose enmity like Dragoon and the other DPS does adds a level of difficulty to the class to an extent, you go all out, then you have to sit out the fight. Biggest DPS loss is not being able to fight because you'll get hate ASAP.

[NoctisUmbra]

DRG is harder to play optimally. I can agree with that. MNK is easier to be good with.

The distinction is, there isn't a huge difference between suboptimal play of DRG and optimal in the same magnitude as that with MNK.

I've said this before - have even tested it. A DRG can play absolutely perfectly at 100% efficiency. An equivalently geared MNK can sit on the flank of the same target and simply spam DK > TwS > SP and just use its 2 CDs and 2 damage buffs. The MNK will out DPS the DRG after a brief start-up period during which the DRG bursts and the MNK winds up. If you have the MNK start with a PB rotation to wind up quickly, then even that isn't an issue.

A lot of the problem with MNK mains isn't that the job is difficult. It is more that they try to do so much, because they think up theoretically superior rotations, and then screw it up in practice by either dropping Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick or even GL3 and then their DPS tanks. Fact of the matter is, a lot of MNKs just try hard and fail harder.

[KyteStones]

SO i'm just gonna drop this quick story out there..

Monk in AK. 1 WHM (friend), 1 PLD, 1 BLM (me) and 1 MNK. Monk and I were attacking separate adds the whole dungeon. He was doing damage so fast, and was doing such great damage I couldn't keep up with him. He would have an add dropped while I still had 10-20% left on my add. Finished the dungeon ins 17 minutes. Healer and I are friends, still can't figure out how the hell they did it.

Monk is fine. People aren't using it correct. This has happened twice to us, Google for a better rotation. If i could find the players and message them I would, but this forum system is lacking pm's.