Monks very weak. Need rebalance

[pandabearcat]

Once I get my sim for monks we can get a fair comparison =)

As of now on a stand still backstabbable target, Dragoon eeks out ahead of Bard but not by much, though is much more sustainable TP wise. Bard TP consumption is still through the roof, and I imagine monk will be as well.

[Risbyn]

Once I get my sim for monks we can get a fair comparison =)

As of now on a stand still backstabbable target, Dragoon eeks out ahead of Bard but not by much, though is much more sustainable TP wise. Bard TP consumption is still through the roof, and I imagine monk will be as well.

Thanks, pandabearcat, looking forward to the MNK sim. Your hard work is appreciated.

[Allyrion]

Once I get my sim for monks we can get a fair comparison =)

As of now on a stand still backstabbable target, Dragoon eeks out ahead of Bard but not by much, though is much more sustainable TP wise. Bard TP consumption is still through the roof, and I imagine monk will be as well.

Yes, I'm looking forward to your results. We really need a proper sim.

[EasymodeX]

Under the same general conditions (stats), my model estimates the following max DPS levels:

DRG: 252.2
BRD*: 244.0
MNK**: 267.7

* Bard estimate does not include Disembowel from DRG. This is roughly a 6-7% increase in total.
** No GL ramp up (start at 3 stacks), no Perfect Balance used for burst or ramp up.

Minor edit: I neglected to adjust the 3 individual stacks of the damage buff portion of GL to be additive since it's 1 buff, rather than multiplicative based on the GL skill speed calculations in the other thread. Net result is a minor downgrade in the MNK estimate.

[pandabearcat]

I still have a hard time believing monk damage is higher than DRG. I suppose I'll have to sim it, tentatively by thursday evening.

DRG's combo is just so much more (almost twice) as much potency as the monk combo, and even the IDC combo is comparable.

I suppose the 21% damage increase is nice, but its 10% over DE and .4? faster skillspeed vs absolutely massive potency and better oGCDs.

EDIT: I got confused between monk and lancer buffs

Its basically TS = HT

DK = DE

Glx3 vs bigger base potencies

I can't remember which one has better DoTs.

[neoreturn]

I still have a hard time believing monk damage is higher than DRG. I suppose I'll have to sim it, tentatively by thursday evening.

DRG's combo is just so much more (almost twice) as much potency as the monk combo, and even the IDC combo is comparable.

I suppose the 21% damage increase is nice, but its 10% over DE and .4? faster skillspeed vs absolutely massive potency and better oGCDs.

EDIT: I got confused between monk and lancer buffs

Its basically TS = HT

DK = DE

Glx3 vs bigger base potencies

I can't remember which one has better DoTs.

You are right, MNK and DRG DPS are very similar. DRG won on burst Dmg and aoe. DRG is better than MNK for in coming pvp. MNK won for a long term fight or some boss fight drg can't always stay on tail side of boss, such T1. DRG boost bard Dmg, overall most group still favor DRG than MNK.

[EasymodeX]

The DOTs don't inherently make an enormous difference.

Monk's DOTs tick for higher though.

The bigger base potencies is balanced by the lower MNK GCD. A TTT DRG combo is ~87 PPS. A monk DK-TW-SP combo has 78.3 ... hmm, I guess it doesn't completely make up for it, but then you have GL3 damage as well as Fists of Fire. Those two combined significantly exceed the DRG base potency advantage.

The OGCDs are slightly in favor of the DRG -- Leg Sweep is a lower cooldown than Steel Peak, and Jumps > Howling Fist.

So it goes back and forth, but the 21% from GL3 is pretty big.

The last bit is that optimal Monk DPS is much less likely to be achieved than Dragoon DPS. This is "obvious" re: Monk positionals, but the basic assessment is this:

1. Dragoons lose more DPS from a failed input/position (lose 70-150 potency due to alternative cost of lost combos in addition to raw potency penalty).
2. Monks have many many more position checks than Dragoons. Each penalizes the Monk less individually, but they add up.

This is besides the possibility of GL3 straight dropping. These penalties will drop Monk "real" DPS significantly more than DRG will drop below theoretical.

[Naalya-Deix]

^This (EasymodeX). Well, I'm finding myself often agree with you definitely.

Monk is not the worst DPSer, he can compete very well with current top DPS which are SMN and BRD (yes to all of you bards on the other post claiming Bard don't need a nerf - "reworking" -, just learn to DPS. In our FC, our Bards can deal with BC Turn 4 knight ALONE with only one 90 piece of gear during phase 5) WHEN planets are aligned. And this is where the bad part of the monk is. But be careful SE while improving melees, they could be overtuned very quickly (we scale damnly good with Det / Crit).

Also to Skill Speed monks, just switch from PoV, GL3 against Skill Speed creates a logarithmic curve as far as stat efficiency is concerned just because of those 15% skill speed which is far ahead of amount given by skill speed and Det / Crit is far more scalable. While you'are aiming for the 2 sec GCD first cap and so 490+ Skill Speed (try witth 90 stuff sim ? haha) and less than 430 crit, 200 det, I'll go for 2.10 (omg, 0.10 sec lost) which is already enough (even more with crit) to keep True Strike above Twin Snakes 1/2 cycle (unless you are Dotting OGCD) with 500+ crit and ~ 300 det. In fact, with 2 sec, you'll need so much Skill Speed that you'll fall under crit / det builds a lot.

However, a fact I didn't see atm on the forums (didn't looked at all the post however) is this :

DRG is prefered for Turn 5 (and even before) cause of + 10% piercing dmg for bards ! (why so many people forgot that ???) If you have good Bards, they'll know how to benefits from him, I assure you...
They have also more armor, and no stance duration or availability problems. They also have 3 DoTs like us, which is 45% of our DPS as a melee so our DPS don't compensate all the advantaged I just spoke about. THIS is a problem and this is also why many BC Turn 5 take a DRG instead of Monk (cause yes, reality is Monk are not favoured for Turn 5, I assure you).

Ideas that I find great :

1) Losing only one stack of GL instead of 3
2) Shoulder tackle GL refresh (maybe too much) and why not lowering the GCD ... I didn't see any problem at all with that so far but well ... I'd like to charge more
3) Increase duration of stances
4) Maybe come back to +5% on Fire Fist ... this has to be tested cause we scale very well with + damage bonus (as any fast melee in any MMOs, hard to change cause of scaling) or more clever : + 15% instead of 10% for Dragon Kick (in order to give an advantage against dragoon buff - unless -+ 10% blunt will serve for another job later ... which I don't believe unless they add a spoon fighter ? xD.
5) Aggro diminution ! (if you're not top aggro, you're doing it wrong)

From Turn 5 monk.

[Rapiso]

current top DPS which are SMN and BRD

3 DoTs like us, which is 45% of our DPS

Please stop

[Naalya-Deix]

Please stop

The DoT's are for "Dragoon VS Monk part".
For SMN, I guess you're a dumbass if you don't think of it as the top DPS currently.
For BRD, it's normal you don't think of him as a top DPS while there is so many BRD out there that don't know how to DPS. Even with Song, our best bard with only not a lot of 90 pieces can deal perfectly with one knight (grey ones) ALONE. I can't.
Even our bards say they need to be a little bit changed in order not to pull out so much burst so often while not being disadvantaged by moves.