Monks very weak. Need rebalance

[Naalya-Deix]

You are misunderstanding the complete meanings of my words. I said we are top DPS if planets are aligned, which never happens in end game and if you put a step in Coil turn 5 yet, you know what I'm talking about.
Fact is : tank and spank fight doesn't exist right now and bad design mechanics make other job higher in DPS than us overall OR as my FC mates are saying right now "monk at the top overall are playing with bad players".

[Ryougi]

You are misunderstanding the complete meanings of my words. I said we are top DPS if planets are aligned, which never happens in end game and if you put a step in Coil turn 5 yet, you know what I'm talking about.
Fact is : tank and spank fight doesn't exist right now and bad design mechanics make other job higher in DPS than us overall OR as my FC mates are saying right now "monk at the top overall are playing with bad players".

.. or the other way around? PLenty of people are regularly topping dps by perfecting rotations, getting movement patterns to rote, there are ways around the melee unfriendliness. But Bards are NOT the highest dps, they're below both BLM's AND Summoners, if we're discounting melee altogether. This is evident by simple numbers. the highest potency bard ability is 150. Fire I is above that with AF3, Fire III is waaay above that, Dots stack above that easily for summoners too.'


As you noted, the parser is broken, but there are ways to test it in a sterile environment, find a dummies, don't aoe. you won't get any miscounted dots, as theres no targets to attribute tehm to but you, the abilities not counted by the parser are well known and documented. Is it perfect? no. But the fact stands bards have NO uncounted abilities and average 30%dps lower than monks, with Summoners nearing monks themselves, -before- pets.

Not that it matter, bards are easy to play, and bring an important role to a group (songs), so even if they do tank-level dps, they're viable.

TLDR; Not trying to bust your balls or anything, but what you're providing with that example is called Anecdotal Evidence, that is, evidence that's essentially hearsay. "you know a guy who can..." -- that is , you are using a story, with no hard facts, about a very specific example, in a very specific scenario, and going "This disproves all other theories and evidence."

Science, math, none of those work that way. Anecdotal evidence is only valid in cases where empirical evidence is hard, or difficult to obtain (As is often the case in criminal investigations, if there wasn't a recording or evidence, you are stuck basing the investigation off the words of those who witnessed it.)

In this case, both this thread and the monk temple thread have pages of posts mathing out the individual viabiity of each stat, and the P/S of monk rotations, there's a post with a spreadsheet simulator that simulates bard P/s and dps in a vacuum, comparing those two alone is enough to provide hard evidence to refute your claim, but you can go a step further, these forums are alight with people sharing techniques, posting videos o them mastering fights so the simple movement requirements of a monk CAN be mastered. The parser not good enough for you? the faults, follies, and un-recorded skills of the parser are well documented, plenty of people have put a large amount of effort into fguring out how to adjust for inflation/loss from the parsers bugs to get accurate ballpark numbers (Solo, on dummies, counting the ticks/potency/average damage of skills that aren't counted and manually adding them, etc.) -- which FURTHER supports the evidence.

Your story is the story of YOUR fc, and YOUR experience, but nowhere, outside of "bards can solo one of the adds when really well geared!" do you provide any proof that bards are superior to ALL OTHER CLASSES in dps, or as you say, "near the top.", nor that only "bad parties say monk is the best dps."

Stories can be made up, numbers, numbers don't lie.

Also: I'm really bad at tldring.

[Risbyn]

But please, do Turn 5 before saying Monk (melee in general) are good. HAHA.

Turn 5 monk here! Been on turn 5 for longer than you most certainly. We run DRG, MNK, BLM, WHM, SCH, PLD, PLD. We get to twister phase everytime with dreadknights. So yes, Monks (melee) in general are good. We can burst down Conflags with 3 stacks. I can eat a fireball with 2 people stacked with me. I've recently stepped down as the primary Monk for progression because I can't dedicate the time anymore. Our FC replaced me with... another FC Monk. Bard is on bottom when it comes to DPS. I can goof and still beat our FC Bards. And our turn 5 Bards on are no slouches either. We don't carry anyone. We demand the highest out of our progression group. If you don't perform, you're out.

You suggesting that melee cannot perform as well as Bards in coil is preposterous. Based on anecdotal evidence no less, despite the large amounts of evidence to the contrary. Well, I've provided my own anecdotal evidence by your own admission that we needed to be on turn 5 to suggest Monk is "good"

Edit: Also we destroy Turn 4, it's like fighting trash mobs now. Saying that Bards can solo a Knight on wave 5 isn't saying much being as they are out of range and can kite. The dreadnaughts aren't even hitting the tanks hard with 0 stacks so the bard can be healed. If I wanted to be a MP sponge, I could solo a knight too. Hell, our BLM can solo his soldier. Using the visual confirmation that "My bard can solo a knight" is laughable as anything when it comes to actually suggesting that it's any kind of DPS measure.

[Naalya-Deix]

Makes me laugh cause you are speaking to a computer architect. So I'm used to math and so. Furthermore, all of the math in your post, I've done it way before most of them during Beta 2. I have a google drive with lot of documents for my Monk mates. You're speaking to a "convinced by number man" and may my words are misleading about it sorry 'bout that. I'm not saying that bards is top DPS by "theorical" numbers, but effectively (Empirical and experiment = As you said, boss mechanics, randomness of some Monk buff, melee situation make us very not favoured for most of bosses ...). ... ".

Again, I know if I stuck to a dummy I'll do more than bard (but not a good SMN I assure you) but this is not the case in end game content and this as to be reworked a little bit (either by adjusting monk drawbacks or game mechanics but ... be careful while doing that cause we are extremely hard to design without bad side effect).

It's like while designing an Information System and a "young" engineer tells me : "ho you know, this is better to do this mathematically". I'll often answer : "Experiment and years teaches you often something else than theorical best practices because you don't want side effect or you prefer to secure the whole system".

[Ryougi]

.. Years and experience teach fine, but you are still only providing -one- example, in a -specific- case, and ignoring the literally, dozens of other fights and variables. That's.. not very empirical. Just because that's YOUR experience, with YOUR fc, does not equate to it being raw fact without some sort of proof other than "this is how it is for me!"

[Naalya-Deix]

.. Years and experience teach fine, but you are still only providing -one- example, in a -specific- case, and ignoring the literally, dozens of other fights and variables. That's.. not very empirical. Just because that's YOUR experience, with YOUR fc, does not equate to it being raw fact without some sort of proof other than "this is how it is for me!"

Find me some monks that are taken in FC groups for turn 5 buddy ! .

EDIT : Ris is. Well, there are other forums / post where you find videos where you see SO FEW monks ... If you do fine there, yeah it's OKAY, but not optimal as far as we are considering the thing ... prefering SMN for example.

[Leraje]

Personally i think Monk is the strongest DPS if he/she is played by someone who is good at playing him/her and has some decent gear to support the damage.
Sure because of the required positions and always to be on the move to evade any AOEs it's hard to play the Monk. But nobody should because of that say the Monk damage is lower than any other Range DPS. If you do less damage than a Range DPS your gear either is worser or you just suck at playing the class
Another note ^^
Every DPS should first of all make the relic +1 and shouldn't waste any myths for his other gear. Because Weapon Damage > the rest of the stats in different order.
I'm not implying that anyone here did it wrong but a dragoon from my fc bought at the start some pieces of his AF2 gear and is still missing his +1 relic.

[EasymodeX]

Umm, how is it surprising that a Bard, who has 5 damage cooldowns, can burst a single target Knight effectively compared to other classes who have fewer damage cooldowns ... specifically a Monk who may drop GL between phase 1 and 2 depending on timing?

[neoreturn]

No one says monk DPS is on the bottom, and no other class agree monk DPS is on the top either. when I play with other dps, my DPS is aways on the top, so what? You are not doing some DPS 30 or 50% higher than others. I have also played with lots of other monks and their DPS is aways on the bottom. From DPS point of view monk DPS is ok, if you doing good, you can be on top, if you doing bad you will on the bottom. Same to all other class. Monk is hard to play and without advantage. monk isn't popular and hard to find group which SE should give monk some help. monk will be at even worse situation when pvp coming if monk can't do any burst Dmg.

[Allyrion]

You are not doing some DPS 30 or 50% higher than others.

Is anyone really saying that? At most, I've seen that monks are some of the highest parsers (or highest). I've never seen anyone claiming to do 30% or 50% or even 20% the damage of another class. That just means SE's balance isn't a complete joke.

Monk doesn't need to be popular. Monk doesn't need to be easy either.
I don't believe we need a dps increase for all our trouble. Play monk if you want a challenge, and that's a good enough reason to make the effort.
If you're good, then you can be on the top even if GL3 falls off sometimes. That's all that matters.
Monks aren't gimped, and good monks shine. No one is calling for monk nerfs so I don't really see what you're defending.
What you've just said came off as monks are in a good place. At least that's how I read it.

Maybe because I have no interest in PvP.