Endgame Warrior MT: Titan

[HiirNoivl]

I'm both a 50 war and 50 sch (technically mrd and arc but whatever) and I can say that its harder to notice if youre hard to heal as a tank, but its damn easy to notice as a healer. Trust me i've had well geared warriors and paladins and a pld is ALWAYS twice as easy and allows for me to triage the party. A war currently requires 100% of one of the healers focus, because if things to rough things get "really" rough for you.

My motto is Skill up, then gear up. In another thread I had postulated that I would need more STR to get my self heals to where they needed to be, but before I did that, I had to make sure that I was doing the right things with the gear I had before I ran off and got more. I was glad I did. It wasn't an issue of gear at all, but more effectively using the toolbox of skills that WAR has.

inner beast's heal just has to be a shield effect...

i really wish yoshida read this forum and listen.

i dont believe saving 5 stacks of wrath for emergency use only is working as intended...

If you give WAR shield effects, then they would have to lower the HP, to keep WAR from becoming Over powered. If you lower the HP and increase mitigation, you'll get PLD. There may be some tweaks coming, but I highly doubt there's going to be a revolution in WAR tanking. After all, the last time they tweaked WAR, they increased Inner Beast to 300% and added a heal-recieved buff and a critical hit buff to Wrath V to further increase self heals. So please understand, WAR is a self heal tank, not a mitigation tank.

[Sebastien]

The reason I'm addressing primarily self-heals is because this is where WARs are falling short. It's giving WAR a bad name. Months from now, we'll be using WAR a lot more, when WARs have more practice, more experience and their parties have more understanding.

I have a feeling that WAR does need a bit of love, but that for the most part you are correct. SqEnx has shown that they can put forward a game that's remarkably well-balanced right out of the box. So I have to believe their combat team is good at math. It seems that one concern with WAR is that they just don't have a healing / recovery button that they can press often enough. In your post, it seems like you went into significant detail about one combo that you can only use once per 90s. Don't you feel a bit naked the rest of the time?

My raid experience in WoW taught me that balancing a self-healing tank is an incredibly difficult thing. DK's went through radical swings of being overpowered or underpowered. But experienced players would always find ways to leverage the concept of a self-healing tank and make certain mechanics of certain raid bosses trivialized as a result. I expect something similar to evolve with WAR here, once players get more experience. But I can imagine that right now the combination of forum chatter, inexperienced players, and anti-warrior bias makes it challenging for a good WAR to prove himself at all. :/

[HiirNoivl]

In your post, it seems like you went into significant detail about one combo that you can only use once per 90s. Don't you feel a bit naked the rest of the time?

That's a good question. I assume that "Every 90 secs" is referring to Berserk + Inner Beast for that really big heal. I wouldn't complain about having that shaved down to 60 seconds for sure... but is it needed?


Starting out with Berserk + Inner Beast after the first Mountain Buster starts the Timer following by Infuriate and you're back at Wrath V and it's self healing Buff. At this point you've already recovered for the next set of Mountain Busters.

You might need to use Thrill of Battle after the second one, if your party is suboptimal or if you're just unlucky. Otherwise, your next Inner Beast is fine with just a regular Inner Beast (buffed with your usual Storm's Eye) and a speedy work up to Wrath V Heal Buff again using Vengeance as a Wrath booster. By the next Mountain Buster Recovery, your Infuriate Skill should be back up again or close to it. Interestingly, Berserk is also a Wrath booster, so you only need IV Wrath to go into your Berserk + Inner Beast Combo the next go around. So I'm not entirely naked. That said there is little margin for error the deeper you get into endgame.

But the same can be said for PLD.

Panic can set in for parties that are inexperienced with WAR tanks. This can lead to overcuring and mana issues. If I have half my HP gone and I'm at Wrath V, I really don't need two healers cure bombing me to get me back up to full again. I run out of cool downs only when things are going wrong with the battle in general. I can only do my best as tank to hold hate and maintain my HP. Other than that, I have no control over what the Mages and DPS do.

It's not incredibly difficult, but it does require practice, timing and communication. I'm putting this post out there just to help people see that Titan is a great training simulator for WAR and hopefully get more people into understanding the job.

[hola]

If you give WAR shield effects, then they would have to lower the HP, to keep WAR from becoming Over powered. If you lower the HP and increase mitigation, you'll get PLD. There may be some tweaks coming, but I highly doubt there's going to be a revolution in WAR tanking. After all, the last time they tweaked WAR, they increased Inner Beast to 300% and added a heal-recieved buff and a critical hit buff to Wrath V to further increase self heals. So please understand, WAR is a self heal tank, not a mitigation tank..

No
a stoneskin every 20sec can hardly be called OP at all.

if inner beast stay the same, war will never be equal to pld in progressing instance.

[hola]

self heal is conflict with healing from healer.

i have to say at least 80% of the time either my inner beast heal is a over heal or healing received from healer is.

if you change it into shield which lasts around 10sec then the problem will be solved.

if yoshida played and loved WOW too much, i bet my account he will change it.

[HiirNoivl]

No
a stoneskin every 20sec can hardly be called OP at all.

if inner beast stay the same, war will never be equal to pld in progressing instance.

A WAR must be prepared to take the damage meted out by a particular boss. As it is, the highest damaged meted out that people are talking about is 8k damage, a number I've already surpassed.

To counteract this, a WAR must be prepared to recover for at least half of that immediately, which could necessitate the use of Berserk + Inner Beast + Infuriate + Inner Beast. At my total lows for Berserk + Inner Beast that would immediately recover 4000 damage in a few seconds, and my highs 5000 not including heals. I feel that is cutting it a little too close, but I'm working on that.

I'm not sure why people keep saying that it cannot be equal.

self heal is conflict with healing from healer.

i have to say at least 80% of the time either my inner beast heal is a over heal or healing received from healer is..

Your mages are panicking and your timing is off. I think this is a really tough problem to work out. WHMs and SCH who are inexperienced are the most likely to waste Mana. In Garuda parties put together by Duty Finder, I will often save my cooldowns, not using them at all due to the more important task of maintaining my Enmity through the shower of green. There's no reason why on Garuda, I should ever see double Medica Buffs, but I do.

But this is not a problem with the job of WAR.

[brainchild]

SqEnx has shown that they can put forward a game that's remarkably well-balanced right out of the box. So I have to believe their combat team is good at math.

LOL. They did well with the potency formulas, but that's about it. Their balance team couldn't comprehend the difference between 20% damage reduction and 25% health/15% healing taken.

[hola]

A WAR must be prepared to take the damage meted out by a particular boss. As it is, the highest damaged meted out that people are talking about is 8k damage, a number I've already surpassed.

seriously

get off your e penis

and

what a war must do depends entirely on how dev design this class, if they change a tiny bit of certain skill, the class will become totally different.

[HiirNoivl]

seriously

get off your e penis

Well, think about it. If it's possible to surpass 8k HP (with Thrill of Battle I should add) with no food, no potions or any extra items at all with ilvl70 gear, what is making people say that WAR will never be viable?

Telling me to shut up is not a proper response.

EDIT: Since I cannot make a new post, I'll post my new record here.



There you go, way over blown.

For the record, the HP cap is not 9999. Geared for VIT and with a Mega-potion of Vitality I can top 10k HP using Thrill of Battle.

To the OP: Spot on about a lot of things. In regards to using Infuriate on pull, a reminder that you can use Vengeance to refresh your Infuriate timer. With the right timing, you should only be without Infuriate for 20-30 sec. Also, any "end-game" War should have enough damage (through skill buffs and usage) to get 3k returns on Inner Beast (more if used with Bloodbath) provided they didn't go full VIT for stat allocation.

Right now, my highest return using Storm's Eye combo + Bloodbath/Internal Release/Berserk + Mega-potion of Strength was ~3600 HP, followed immediately with an Infuriate + Inner Beast for ~2600 HP after Titan's spike damage. Not only did I full heal myself with that combo, I also saved the fight because the two healers I was running with were still trying to catch up on Weight of the Land heals on DPS who didn't want to move out of it.

Thanks Pexx. I was trying all night to get over 3k (still not allowed to post so editing this one) and couldn't manage it. Right now, with no potions of Vit, I can get about 8472 Thrill of Battle with a full Vit Stat Allocation and I'm wondering how much I could get with Materia, but for the life of me I couldn't get over 3k Inner Beast. Of course, that's cutting it way too close for comfort for Coil. I'll be working on fixing stat allocation to make sure that I can spike heal for at least 3000 regularly without sacrificing too much HP. It's tough attempting to having it both ways in this early stage in the game.

It's also tough having people laugh at you for trying!!

[Hachiko]

Well, think about it. If it's possible to surpass 8k HP (with Thrill of Battle I should add) with no food, no potions or any extra items at all with ilvl70 gear, what is making people say that WAR will never be viable?

Telling me to shut up is not a proper response.

You GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY over-value HP, and you seem to think the game will cap at 9999 hp which will be the "best" possible, and you constantly go on about how people just need to get as much HP or gear as you, but that's beside the point: Paladins are already doing content beyond what you are doing in significantly less gear.

That's the point.

Having 25k HP wouldn't even matter for a WAR, because you are still FAR less efficient to heal as a WAR tank. You would be able to take a hit, but you are still going to run your healers dry much quicker because a) you take far more damage even outside of a PLD's cooldowns, b) you take more mana to heal point for point, and c) WAR don't have any useful cooldowns for big damage abilities.

That's why people say it's not viable.

Being able to take an 8k hit doesn't mean jack ***** if your healers can't heal 8k before the next 8k hit comes in. And it means even less if it takes your healers 33% more mana to heal you as a WAR tank.

That's why people say it's not viable.

Yes, your WAR has a lot of HP. But no, you're not going to just suddenly be "good" by hitting a magical HP number. You may be viable on some bosses. But as a MT you will always be beyond sub optimal. And no amount of HP is going to make you viable against a boss that hits for 6-7k. with any regularity.