Loose use of the term "eliteist"

[Jynxii]

The fact is "YOU" can't tell another what they should have for content (even if you are correct).

For the sake of argument, I'm pretty sure you can 'tell' people whatever you like. There are ways of doing things, and if you are going to straight out say "Hey X, you're under geared for this, leave now and get more Darklight gear" then you're going to get a bad reaction. But you can just as easily say "Hey X, you might be a little under geared for this, but we'll give it a shot anyway. I would recommend trying to get a couple of Darklight pieces before queuing again though". (For those interested, this is called hedging :P) You are still letting the player know that they aren't really geared for the encounter, but giving them a chance to acknowledge it themselves without ramming it down their throat.

Anyhow, I don't necessarily have the same luxury as some other players, as playing on the JP servers limits the actual pool of English players to roughly 3 servers, so there is a good chance I'll get pugs that are actually on my server. If I acted like a dick, it takes someone two seconds to post a comment to their FC and suddenly I'm ousted from any server based content. Not that this stops me from saying what I think anyway, it is just lucky that I'm not a complete arse hole :P But anonymity definitely breeds them; why be nice to someone if you won't see them again unless you randomly bump into them in the next run?

Also not sure if it was this thread, but I did mention how I'm far more lax about these things than some players (I guess I fit into Randalthor's 'normal' category), and I don't mind giving things a few attempts before it becomes painfully obvious that is isn't getting better/won't happen.

Thats just it, we have no idea what the content was designed for... Too many groups fail because they just simply suck at teamwork, aka that soloist "screw you guys, im just here for *insert role*" mentality. And no, a DF pug is no excuse to exclusively DPS, Tank, or Heal.

Oh I don't disagree, and there are no doubt people that want nothing but over geared players so the runs go by easily (half the time these are probably less geared players), however I do think a certain standard can be applied. As was mentioned earlier, a pug has less communication and coordination, so over gearing is never a bad thing, which kind of comes to your second point where people pigeon hole themselves into specific roles or 'attitudes' from the get go. There was a big forum thread on here awhile ago where a DPS player was raging about healers not having swiftcast. The healer had to have swiftcast, but he didn't have to move/avoid the AoEs; makes sense right?

I've always been a firm believe of skill trumping gear (exlcuding gear checks), but so many people have been conditioned to being rewarded for poor play that so few players feel inclined to improve if they do poorly, and blame things like latency. Latency is often a factor (and can be devastating for some mechanics), but then you look at their positioning, reaction speed and ability to adapt to changing environments, and it is simply horrible, yet they'll scream until they're blue in the face that it wasn't their fault, and it is server's fault for lagging, or SE's fault for making impossible to beat encounters if you are above 100ms!

Again, this is an attitude thing. The cognitive dissonance between 'thinking' you're a highly skilled player, and the 'reality' of how skilled you actually are conflicts so results in rage and shifting of the blame so you don't feel bad about yourself. These players are easy to spot and continue on being mediocre. It isn't until you accept that you can actually improve, that actually start too.

ps. Sorry for the long as essay, lol. ><

[AxeIvy]

Since so many of you seem to have trouble understanding the word "elitist", let me make this easy.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elitist

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.
e·litist adj. & n.

In other words, being a skilled player doesn't make you an elitist. Talking smack on the forums about how bad everyone else is, does make you an elitist. And there's no reason why anyone should feel proud to belong to the latter category.

[Evandis]

You may be an elitist troll if...

[Shadowblind]

You may be an elitist troll if...

. . . you go into duty finder and expect a speed run

. . . you complain to players new to the instance that they aren't perfect

. . . you sound like an ass making a forum post whining about people who are whining about elitism

. . . you whine that people aren't skipping Praetorium cutscenes despite them being new and this being your eight-hundredth time

. . . you forget this is a GAME and a GAME which has MANY PLAYERS and forget that this isn't an RPG this is an MMORPG. Expecting the unexpected with regards to player interaction is expected, inherent, and part of the fabric of the game. If you don't like that, FFXV will be coming out someday just for you.

. . . you get angry at new instance players for sub-standard armor sets, somehow being completely ignorant of the "new" part of this sentence and expecting them to consult the almighty internet before they do ANYTHING

I'm sure I missed some, but those are what came to mind first :P

[TohruHonda]

Lol what an elitist.

[Huxer]

3) We are in Duty Finder dungeon and I have already said 3 times to press T to get my target but you continue to DPS the one that isn't begin aggroed by my tank. The healer is forced to break off and heal you which makes me have to pop defensive cooldowns. Hell, I might have to switch targets to pull the damn thing off you. Now my taunt is down and when the healer pulls aggro from the third mob because he had to heal you back up I don't have taunt up anymore, he dies and we wipe and I take the blame.

In conclusion, I don't like you. You make everything harder on me because you fail to take any responsibility for yourself much less the group as an entity of people ho all want to win the event and move on. No, your too concerned about how it's a game and you should be having fun. You are not allowing me to have fun, you are not allowing the other 6 people to have fun.

[Huxer]

Learn how to listen, learn your responsibilities or how about this, don't join group quests. I know, I know you are't listening to me, you don't care what I or anyone else thinks or says, it's me that is the elitist after all.

Damn no account entitled people make me mad.

[Kirschey]

-snip-
Damn no account entitled people make me mad.

You are a shining beacon of hope in this place.

[ZakarnRosewood]

If you are "Elite" Why would you need to use DF? Wouldnt you find an Elite Free Company full of other Elite people, so you can run dungeons in your Elite way?

Sorry, not trying to trivialize your issue. I have been in that situation before, Titan fight comes to mind and WHM getting knocked off every single time. As pissed off as I was and how much I screamed at my monitor, I kept my cool in game, continued to offer advise and ended up beating it. (Check out this thread for more details.) I think the defining trait of the undesirable "elite" player is not their supposed skill but how they handle the situation. Not what you say, but how you say it. Not trying to white knight anything, only providing the other side of the argument.

Just my 2gil.

[Ileani]

As someone that was a "silent elitist" in Final Fantasy XI, I feel I can contribute to this discussion by sharing my past experiences and mindset. The purpose of my post is to try to help people understand this mindset. This is not a defense post.

From the onset, the problems stem from a person's objectives - clearing content, getting loot, having fun with friends, seeing new things, being carried, etc. The objective is different for everyone, and is one of the primary reasons people don't mesh well. For example, a couple of people think wiping on Ifrit HM is exhilarating or inspiring, whereas the rest of the group might hate it. One might be watching a movie in the background, because "its just a game." There is no right or wrong answer here, because nobody can tell you how to live your life. This is where most people have trouble.

From there, other problems exist that are core to any game design. One of those is mathematics.

When you have content that is based around a gear check, you depend on your healers to be putting out "X" amount of heals per second, on your DPS to properly execute their rotations and put out "Y" amount of damage, and your tank to manage cooldowns and have a basic level of HP to survive. In Final Fantasy XI, I used to play a Red Mage. When I casted an enfeeble on an HNM, there was a check. If I met the required stats/numbers, I was successful; otherwise, I was not. There is no personal skill in casting the spell - there is only a mathematical check to determine if it takes effect.

This is where, for me, elitism comes in. When you have enough experience with the content, it is possible to judge someone's theoretical maximum just by giving him/her a brief inspection. On the more difficult fights, the margins of error become smaller, thus requiring a higher average out of everyone. When the people that want to clear it as fast as possible perceive someone as "undergeared," they get angry because the theoretical maximum of the group was bumped down several arbitrary notches; now it involves more wiping or the possibility of not even clearing it at all. This has nothing to do with personal skill, nor am I defending the actions of people that curse and ostrasice others that don't have top tier gear the day before it was released. I am merely trying help people understand one possible mindset.

This is different to me than judging the person. I don't have a personal stake or vendetta against the person behind the character; it is only the character I care about. The attitude of the person can affect that, of course, but at a base level I can only work with the tangible things.

I do not have anywhere close to enough experience to judge other people's performance now; I only know how much I cure for, how fast I can pump them out, the cooldowns I have at my disposal, etc. I am actively trying to avoid the same mindset that I developed in Final Fantasy XI. The game is new and I am still learning, as are many others. A lot of people probably don't even have a level 50 battle class yet. I don't begrudge them their journey, presume to tell them what they should take seriously in life, or tell them how they should spend their time.

And now what anyone that looked at my post has been waiting for:

tl;dr = People want to do different things with their time. One possible explanation for "elitism," as it is coined in this specific context, is because games that revolve around math and theoretical maximums (that depend solely on gear) can anger those whose objectives conflict with people they perceive as "undergeared," - regardless of the actual difficulty of the content.

I cleared AK in a FC run, I had just a couple of Darklight accessories and a weapon, our tank only had a Darklight weapon (AF, mid level accessories), our SMN had a few darklight pieces, and our BRD had Ifrit's Bow with a few greens. It is possible. It was fun. It took a lot of time. Unfortunately, some people feel their definition of fun and their worldview is the only one that matters.