Has SE screwed itself?

[Sylve]

snip

Thats funny. Didn't know i could cast Stone and Stone II at the same time. If Aero and Aero II function in the same way Bio and Bio II work, then grats you have 3 spells. Still only 2 if you sync down.


The SCH retains the Fairy as it replaces the Carby completely. You still have the Fairy to alter your mechanics so that you can heal properly since the ACN wasn't built as a healer on its own.

A Conjurer using a DPS job, syncing down to do sub 28 Dungeons is just a Conjurer taking up a DPS slot, pretending to DPS.

Of the 8 Classes we have now, how many of them feel the same as the next one? Hint: none.

Alright, heres an example, lets say we get Dark Knight. Now, in FFTactics (Last time i used a DRK anyways) Their skills revolve around draining life to fuel their attacks. We do not have a class in the game right now that is even close to that, thematically.
Theres also the issue of these new Jobs needing new weapons to reflect their Jobs theme.
A Ninja would be dual wielding. We don't have a dual wield class.
Musketeer/Corsair uses a Gun, no class we have uses a Gun.
A Dancer would need special animations for every single skill, and what the hell would it come from anyways? PGL is about closest thing, but a Dancer (AFAIK) doesn't use Fist weapons.
Then you have other classes with skills and themes that do not even come close to an existing class.

My Monk feels like a Monk because of its Pugilist roots.
My DRG feels like a DRG because of its roots as a Lancer.

In short, the Jobs feel the way they do because of their base class, it's not something you just change the effects on a couple of skills, tack on a couple more and call it a day.

Seriously, how would you add the "very heavy focus on big burst hits" to ARC in 5 abilities without making it broken as hell? How are you going to get rid of all of the ARC abilities that focus on craploads of little hits through free attacks and DoTs? The only way you're going to get a completely different style of DPS is to create an entirely different class built around that construct, with the abilities and traits to support it.

Wait... Wait just a moment. Let me get this straight. You think we should just change up skills, skill effects and traits, essentially the entire structure of a class so that a class like CNJ can have a DPS Job, or PGL can have a Tank job, but then attack and deny the idea of changing the Archer to have a burst DPS Job alongside a Support Job?

Bolded, underlined and italicized for emphasis. This, right there, is my entire god damned point.

[Kitru]

Wait... Wait just a moment. Let me get this straight. You think we should just change up skills, skill effects and traits, essentially the entire structure of a class so that a class like CNJ can have a DPS Job, or PGL can have a Tank job, but then attack and deny the idea of changing the Archer to have a burst DPS Job alongside a Support Job?

Your reading comprehension is *terrible*. The statement your quoting refers to having multiple jobs with the same role attached to the same class, not different jobs for the same role attached to the same job. To get CNJ to play like a legit DPS you don't actually have to *change* any of the existing abilities. You simply *add* new attacks while altering the stat allocation to prevent role crossover. It's really not that hard, unless you have absolutely no clue what's going one.

And, before you bring it up, Support isn't a role. It's a secondary functionality. BRD is a DPS class. When you queue up for DF, you don't get a "Support" slot; you get a "DPS" slot. Calling it a support class is like calling MNK a support class because it brings Mantra or SCH as support instead of healer when it brings Selene. When you queue up as a BRD, you're not joining as a Support; you're joining as a DPS because that's what BRD actually is. It has some support functionality (which, interestingly enough, multiple classes actually have), but it's still a DPS.

Furthermore, you never said how exactly you're going to make it so that your second DPS ARC job doesn't play *exactly* like BRD 99% of the time. If the two jobs play *exactly* the same except that one has some songs that it can throw up and the other has some new damage buffs and/or attacks on a long CD, you're not really creating an appreciably different playstyle. They're still going to be doing the exact same thing pretty much *all* the time so there's no real difference between the two.

Changing *role*, however, even if the basic attributes of the class remain, fundamentally changes the playstyle because it completely and utterly shifts the focus of the class. Going from DPS to tank would have you hitting largely the same buttons in the same order but, because you're now worrying about avoiding damage and using tank CDs to mitigate bursts rather than just pumping out numbers, it will play *completely differently*.

BRD doesn't change how ARC plays because they're both DPS. None of the jobs really do, with the exception of SCH because it's forcing a role change, because there isn't much you can do to change how a class performs its existing role with 5 abilities. You're Sniper wouldn't be a unique job; it would be a BRD that doesn't use its songs and gets some tweak to its damage profile while still using all of the same attacks/rotations.

I still find it interesting that, rather than describing how you would bring about this fundamental change in playstyle for the ARC/BRD to justify the presence of the Sniper, you elect to completely misinterpret what I'm saying and *also* remain oblivious of how the game actually operates. I challenged you to explain how you would have Sniper play different enough from a BRD for it to have a reason to exist: they're both DPS and having redundant DPS jobs isn't really a worthwhile expenditure of development resources. Just adding a couple cooldowns isn't going to accomplish anything because you're still relying upon the ARC abilities for everything, which is exactly what BRD does; adding some new attacks that do more damage isn't going to fly because BRD is already balanced against the other DPS *as a DPS* and increasing its damage would make your new class overpowered. Explain to all of us how you would *fundamentally change* how ARC deals damage in those 5 abilities. Please. Show us.

Bolded, underlined and italicized for emphasis.

The next time you try to single out a statement, make sure you understand what the hell it's saying. All you accomplished by doing that was demonstrating how absolutely incapable of understanding my point you actually were.

Based upon your logic, it's impossible to have a job for a class different from its base role. We already know *that* is impossible because of SCH. What *I* am saying is that it is impossible to have a job for a class that is the *same* as its base role because it's not going to be appreciably different from the job that already exists. A different role will use those abilities in a different way because that's what role does: it completely changes the focus of the class. If it's the same role, it's doing the *exact same thing*. It's like coming up with a new healer job for CNJ: it would still end up healing the exact same as WHM with 99% of the time because the only thing you're really losing is Regen (which is really just the lazy healer's maintenance heal; it does what Cure does when you don't feel like exerting yourself at all). Change it to a DPS job, however, and it plays fundamentally differently because it's focusing on an entirely different aspect of the class.

[Gamemako]

Rubbish

I could rip apart this post, but I've had it with the ad hominem. You can't even be arsed to look at the equipment lists before raging about it, and that tells me all I need to know about the value of a response.

A Dancer would need special animations for every single skill, and what the hell would it come from anyways? PGL is about closest thing, but a Dancer (AFAIK) doesn't use Fist weapons.

As I recall, Dancer almost exclusively uses knives, which are (oddly enough) already taken by GLA. If you ask me, push daggers are as good a replacement as any. However, I'm not sure how much I would like PGL Dancer in that it would likely have to be designed in such a way that is basically BRD-esque DPS+buff design. You could take the Fists abilities in a different direction, like make them preliminary steps to form dances, but I think that might be a bit ham-handed.

[Enkidoh]

A while ago I recall hearing that apparently Yoshi acknowledges the GLA dagger issue and is intending to remove them from that class (it was a holdover from 1.0's original battle system), so that shouldn't be an issue introducing a hypothetical 'rogue' type class (besides, the Armoury System doesn't even actually list weapons or tools by their specific 'type' like 'swords' or 'guns' anyway - instead they're listed as the class's name's 'arm'/'two-handed arm', or 'primary/secondary tool', like Gladiator's Arm for sword or Conjurer's Two-Handed Arm for a two-handed staff, meaning even if daggers weren't removed from GLA, they could easily be given to another class as well, but just listed as '<insert hypothetical class name here>'s Arm').

As for Dancer, I can definitely see it coming off PGL ironically enough, as only FFXI gave them knives (and even that was an afterthought - they could also equip MNK h2h weapons as well - only later was the Job given Dual Wield and hence became more adept at using blades). I can't remember what weapons exactly they used in FFV though.

However in FFT took they took the cake though for unique and unusual weapons - they used pieces of fabric! So maybe they might end up off an entirely new class which utilizes something similar (Acrobat maybe?).

[Gamemako]

besides, the Armoury System doesn't even actually list weapons or tools by their specific 'type' like 'swords' or 'guns' anyway

Yeah, there's nothing stopping them from duplicating weapon types except the awkwardness of doing it.

As for Dancer, I can definitely see it coming off PGL ironically enough, as only FFXI gave them knives...

FF5 was knives only. Knives were an option for pretty much every other release as well (except X-2's Songstress). Knives are definitely the most common Dancer weapon type, though that's probably because they're also the general weapon type that any job can use for any reason.

[Borfin]

If you can't figure out how something can be tweaked to fit thematically or stemming from other jobs, you're not creative enough.

[Starfox71rt]

Yeah, there's nothing stopping them from duplicating weapon types except the awkwardness of doing it.

I had this same thought this weekend. We already have 2 classes (3 if you count PLD and dagger/sword) that use two different weapon types: WHM (wand/staff) and BLM (cudgel/cane). Furthermore, wands/cudgels and staffs/canes are essentially the same thing with different stats.

[Corrderio]

Going to be interesting to say the least on how they address this. All I really want to know is why they kept daggers on GLA of all things.

[Mcshiggs]

Dual wield is simple to introduce, instead of having a weapon in each slot, make it a pair, so gladiator can use a brass dagger, but not brass daggers, like how fist weapons work, one pair equipped in main hand slot. If you did have a dual wield class, ninja could easily come off it, just that the weapons they can equip would be ninja only, and you could make them, you know ninja style weapons, this is already in the game in a way. Look at the primal books, Scholar books can only be used by scholars, while the summoner book can be used while just a mere arcanist. Ninja I think it would be funny if they just gave a big "FU" to the XI crowd and made ninjas a ranged dd class, I think in earlier games their specialty was throwing weapons, they could always toss in ninjitsu to make up for it, but all utsusemi would end up being is a featherfoot with a mystical animation. Lancer could easily have a tank class, let's call it Tankinglancer(TLR). Tankinglancer's spears would be one handed, TLR only, and that would free up a spot for a nifty Spartan like shield, but out of respect for 300, their AF armor would need to have then men's ab show, not the ladies.

[Gamemako]

Dual wield is simple to introduce, instead of having a weapon in each slot, make it a pair, so gladiator can use a brass dagger, but not brass daggers, like how fist weapons work, one pair equipped in main hand slot.

Yeah, that's pretty much a given. Equipping one in offhand slot would make a right mess of things due to stats. Would have to be an entire new class, of course. Provided ARR lasts, I suspect we'll see a dual-wielding job eventually. They're too damn popular in video games.

Tankinglancer's spears would be one handed, TLR only, and that would free up a spot for a nifty Spartan like shield

Swapping from a two-handed to a one-handed setup would require completely redoing the animations for every ability in the Lancer's arsenal. That is pretty unlikely, especially when there's no reason to add blocking specifically to the class.