Has SE screwed itself?

[MartaDemireux]

snip

Well if you're going to count all 18 ACN abilities: SCH utilizes 9-10 (pending on if there is a SMN to Res. 11 if applying Bio when applicable in the same manner where a WHM should be applying Aero). SMN utilizes 17 of them (as Virus, EfaE and Res. should be used on big fights) not sure how you got 12. And to be entirely honest, while clearing trash or a boss which everyone is over-geared for the SCH could/should use all of ACN abilities to get it done faster. And, if the healer DC's a SMN could do minor healing to keep the tank from dying as fast until the healer returns. So really even though they're entirely different, they are still ACN's at heart.

As a MNK I'm sure you at least don't utilize Haymaker (have to be evading attacks that shouldn't be directed at you in the first place) and rarely FoE (outside of almost dying or before a special attack). Those two abilities alone could be the bread and butter for a tank job coming out of PGL. The new job's abilities could even have one use a special technique depending on the form you're in. I could see DNC coming out of PGL in this manner due to forms being similar to dances. A dance could apply a 20s evasion bonus when in raptor form, defense for coeurl and magic defense for opo-opo. They could even change the skin of fisticuffs to fans and it would work well without needing many animations. Other abilities could have synergy with existing ones too in the same way that MRD abilities are altered due to WAR's Defiance. A new stance such as Fan Dance in FFXI's rendition could change Greased Lightning's DPS properties to tanking ones, increasing enmity and decreasing incoming damage per stack.

I haven't missed that you're not against adding jobs to existing classes but you are arguing that they shouldn't be or at least couldn't be. You however seem to miss that I'm not against adding new classes even though I've said as much above. I just think new classes should/will come with 2 roles each and existing classes should/will be given 2 roles each. Never once did I say they should "never add in new classes to level." I very much do believe RDM and BLU will need their own classes such as: Fencer for RDM(dps) and Mystic Knight(tank), Flayer for BLU (probably dps but maybe able to fill different roles with different mob abilities) and BST (possibly a tank or ability to fill multiple roles with different pets) utilizing a similar mechanic to FFTA's Morpher/Beastmaster where you at say level 6 can learn "Bug Soul" which you can then set a bug-type pet to for BST or a bug-type monster ability you've learned for BLU (actually in the process of pitching the idea).

You may not want to admit it but there are more casual than hardcore players of XIV and that is what pays SE's bills. SE will look towards keeping the majority happy as well as being able to cut costs. Since jobs are much cheaper than classes to create and would be pleasing to the majority to not have to level up a whole new class just to be able to get a group as a different role, I was giving a realistic view on the situation at hand.

[Sylve]

snip

You still haven't given a convincing argument on why Jobs should be a priority over Classes because of 'casuals'.
I have friends who only play a few hours on weekends, both have one class at 50, and are currently working on multiple new classes.

We do agree at least in part, that some Classes could get alt role Jobs, But some classes, In my honest opinion, should not. PGL, LNC, CNJ being notable ones. Giving a DPS Job to Marauder is fine, they can just use DRG style gear with tweaked traits/skills, thats fine.
But a Tank Job for PGLs? Please no! They would be required to either wear heavier gear (which goes directly against the PGL lore), or have weird percentile buffs to make them on par with the existing Tank classes, which as seen in many other MMOs, leads to massive overscaling/underscaling and in some cases, breaks boss encounters.

Another reason I'm wary of giving certain Classes some of the Jobs found in previous titles, is the weapon they use. So far, all 9 Jobs continue to use the weapon the base class is built around, as well as the core spells/skills, even the SMN/SCH as you pointed out use the same spells when healing isn't intensive.
If a new Job's iconic weapon is NOT the same as the class it's coming from, Then how do you switch to it? Equip the weapon? But its the Soul Crystal giving the class the Job, So you equip the Crystal? Now the weapon is wrong!
Even the SCH can be a little weird in sub 30 Dungeons, they just become ACNs with a Fairy.
So this again limits which Jobs can be applied to existing classes, as we currently have no changes to equipable weapons when moving from Class to Job.
I do believe Yoshi at one stage pointed out that Classes were better suited to solo play with the wider cross class pool, where Jobs were more specialized and better utilized in organized play (Parties etc).

Jobs aren't actually any easier to create than Classes, because to create a new Job for an existing class, they would need to first pick a Job that is similar to the class it's coming from, modify all the existing skills for the new Role, then add new Job specific skills and then create a story for the Job to work through and gain its Job skills from.
From what I've seen of the Class/Job structure, the ACN was built from the ground up to have 2 Jobs. None of the other Classes were built that way. The CNJ is a prime example of that, given how many of the skills learned are straight up Healing spells.

I would very much like to see more multi-job classes, If only because i like variety.
But i do very much feel that any multi-job classes should be created new, from scratch, to be multi-job, the way the ACN was.

[Kitru]

But a Tank Job for PGLs? Please no! They would be required to either wear heavier gear (which goes directly against the PGL lore), or have weird percentile buffs to make them on par with the existing Tank classes, which as seen in many other MMOs, leads to massive overscaling/underscaling and in some cases, breaks boss encounters.

Actually, giving PGL a tank job wouldn't be too hard. There is a constant ratio between the defense of PLD/WAR gear and MNK gear: 1:1.9. It's not always *exact*, but it's close enough that it wouldn't matter. It, honestly, wouldn't be that hard to turn PGL into a tank: remove the positional requirements, add some high enmity additional effects, add a stance that increases defense and mdef by 90% and changes Greased Lightning to an evasion buff instead of a +dam buff (so that they get 22.5% +evasion and 22.5% less damage than they "should", which is a good balance against the 20% DR/dam debuff that PLD gets with Shield Oath), and you're most of the way there. All you'd really need to add would be a 30 sec off-GCD stun and a couple reliable tank CDs, all of which could be done through the job; it even has a decent "baseline" CD suite in Second Wind, Featherfoot, and Mantra. There's even a model job that's existed in other games that could be used *easily*: Berserker. In most of its iterations, it's an unarmed/fist weapon class with high evasion and a lot of durability. It even plays off of the "animal stance" thing that PGL already does. The only "weird" thing that you'd end up with is PGL gear having completely wrong itemization, though that could be solved by having crits increase parry chance or something similar so that you get some mitigation benefits from DPS gear.

Honestly, PGL could *easily* be given a tank job, more easily than LNC, imo, since LNC has a weird ratio on def/mdef compared to MAR/GLA (1.45 for def and 2.7 for mdef), though it does have the advantage of a lot of LNC gear having parry on it.

The hardest secondary jobs to add really are healers, mainly because you either have to have a heal naturally (like ACN does) or expect the class to bring in as an additional (which is possible; have CNJ or ACN as one of the requirement classes and build the job around them bringing Cure/Physick since they would *have* to have it; they already assume that WAR is going to bring a half of its CD suite from additionals). Turning a healer class into a DPS isn't *too* hard since you're just adding abilities that provide an interesting rotation through the job (CNJ gets 3 useful damage attacks and could add Thunder from THM; job adds 5 more, which would provide a full 9 attacks for the full DPS suite, which is pretty much what BLM relies upon). Tank into DPS just requires removing the enmity additional effects (which the devs have said that they're capable of doing) and providing some +dam (possibly something like adding a portion of Defense to STR or Detemination) and damage CDs to boost up. DPS into tank just doing the reverse of the tank to DPS: add enmity modifiers, a tank stance, and some tank CDs.

I don't think that a *lot* of new jobs should be added to the existing classes, mainly because people are already hitting 50 in multiple jobs and adding new jobs to existing classes would be giving them entirely new jobs that they'd be jumping into right off the bat. The first new jobs I expect to be brought in with entirely new classes with a few others added to current jobs that don't change the playstyle *too* much (tank job for PGL, DPS job for MAR, DPS for CNJ). I do expect them to start adding them reasonably quickly, mainly because tweaking leveling content when people aren't really going to be leveling much isn't really an efficient use of resources.

[Gamemako]

Actually, giving PGL a tank job wouldn't be too hard.

Evasion does not a tank make. You cannot RNG your tank into oblivion. To make PGL into a tank, you would need to increase HP by 150%, increase defense by 100% or increase eHP further to account for the reliable boost to burst damage. That's not touching the positioning issue, the enmity issue, or anything else obviously missing. PGL as tank will not happen, period.

Honestly, PGL could *easily* be given a tank job, more easily than LNC, imo, since LNC has a weird ratio on def/mdef compared to MAR/GLA (1.45 for def and 2.7 for mdef), though it does have the advantage of a lot of LNC gear having parry on it.

What kind of stats does this armor have? I'm pretty sure they're tank stats.

The hardest secondary jobs to add really are healers, mainly because you either have to have a heal naturally (like ACN does) or expect the class to bring in as an additional (which is possible; have CNJ or ACN as one of the requirement classes and build the job around them bringing Cure/Physick since they would *have* to have it; they already assume that WAR is going to bring a half of its CD suite from additionals).

The assumption of cross-class is already there for Protect. That's not really the problem. The problem is that for level 15 jobs, you have to do something to account for the ability to queue into 15-30 without proper abilities. SCH gives them all to the pet right off the bat for AoE heals, but for others, you'd have to make some concession for making it work.

a few others added to current jobs that don't change the playstyle *too* much (tank job for PGL)

The squishiest melee, numero uno of the dead-meat clan, and you really think it's going to be a tank? I'll tell you what. 10,000 gil. 10,000 gil bet.

[Ehayte]

Evasion does not a tank make.[/i]

Passive evasion does not a tank make.

If you give them abilities to actively evade attacks, something like a 10s CD ability that will evade the next attack (100% chance) and a stance that must be upkept that reduces incoming damage by A LOT and reduces incoming healing by A LOT would do the trick. You just need to make their evasion very powerful and active, and have mistakes be absolutely damning. Note the operative word is "just". : D

Just saying its totally possible, you are making it seem way harder than it actually is.

My money is on SAM or Mystic Knight being the next tank though.

[Kitru]

Passive evasion does not a tank make.

Passive evasion *alone* does not a tank make, not because evasion is somehow worthless for a tank but because it doesn't increase eHP. The provision of regular absorb shields or a +hp bonus would provide all of the burst survivability needed, which WoW demonstrated pretty well with Druid tanks. Over time, increased evasion is just as effective at the role of increasing healing efficiency as DR and +healing. It's only over the short term that evasion becomes worthless because it isn't reliable.

[Kitru]

To make PGL into a tank, you would need to increase HP by 150%, increase defense by 100% or increase eHP further to account for the reliable boost to burst damage. That's not touching the positioning issue, the enmity issue, or anything else obviously missing. PGL as tank will not happen, period.

As I said, you only have to increase def/mdef by 90% and the hp increase it would require would be nowhere *near* 150%. The only time you'd need any more hp than what you get on DPS gear would be at 50, when you start getting gear that's designed for specific classes and roles. Tank PGL gear would just have more Vit on it. There would be some issues with eHP for burst damage, but nowhere near insurmountable. The same 25% increase to hp that the WAR gets could be copied over since, honestly, it's not like there's a lot of options to increase eHP than DR and +hp.

The positioning, enmity, and "anything else obviously missing" (like... what? tank CDs? PGL already gets 3) aren't even really issues. The devs have explicitly said that they can change the secondary effects of abilities with job changes. All it would require would be removing the positional requirements (possibly swapping them over to form bonuses if it's absolutely necessary) and adding additional effect increased enmity (or just doing something like "increased enmity based upon your current form: Raptor x3, Coeurl x5" to keep with the 100%>300%>500% model that the other tanks use).

Seriously, PGL is nowhere near as insurmountable as you're making it out to be.

What kind of stats does this armor have? I'm pretty sure they're tank stats.

And those are actually pretty rare. As far as current gear is concerned, it's the exception, not the rule. Look at actual LNC/DRG gear. It's got the wonky def/mdef ratio that I was referring to. Unless you expect to devs to go through and add a whole new slew of LNC gear to 20-50 with tank stats for everything *except* for the 3-4 chest/head pieces that just so happen to have tank loadouts (because you're going to actually need tank gear to tank).

They could make a LNC tank job in multiple ways (simply allowing them to equip the WAR/PLD armor or going through and removing the LNC/DRG tag from the miniscule number of items that they can use atm and giving them a stance that increases def/mdef), but it requires just as much, if not more, work than what I suggested for PGL. You are *vastly* overestimating what it would require to get a PGL into a tank class. Hell, PGL actually has a better native CD suite than LNC does which gives them a leg up right off the bat.

The assumption of cross-class is already there for Protect. That's not really the problem. The problem is that for level 15 jobs, you have to do something to account for the ability to queue into 15-30 without proper abilities. SCH gives them all to the pet right off the bat for AoE heals, but for others, you'd have to make some concession for making it work.

You don't have to make a concession for anything for the 15-30 dungeons when they level sync down. Whispering Dawn has a 60 sec CD so it's nowhere *near* Medica on effectiveness. You can run all of those with just single target heals so it's not even an issue. The only thing you'd really have to do is order the job abilities properly, such that you get the AoE heal and big heal asap and a cleanse soon after.

The squishiest melee, numero uno of the dead-meat clan, and you really think it's going to be a tank?

Because, you know, the "squishiest melee", as you call it, (which isn't really; DRG takes only slightly less than MNK and DRG actually takes *more* because MNK has better mDef, which happens to be a majority of the AoE damage that goes out) would still stay squishy if given the proper tank changes. It would completely *impossible* to give them increased hp and a def/mdef multiplier to bring them up to what the existing tanks already get. If you actually look at the comparative loadouts that LNC and PGL get, PGL really does end up having a lot less that would need to be tacked on to make them as effective as the existing tanks:

LNC would require reworking or adding a large amount of gear thanks to existing inconsistencies.
LNC and PGL would both require tank stances, neither of which is particularly difficult to determine from a mathematical perspective.
LNC has a *much* weaker tank CD suite compared to PGL (Keen Flurry v. Featherfoot, Second Wind, Mantra) which means that more would have to be drawn from additionals or through the job itself.
LNC and PGL both have positional requirements that would have to be revised, not that it would be all that difficult to just remove the positional requirement and make the positional bonuses baseline.
LNC and PGL both have to have high enmity modifiers added, which is, once again, not a difficult prospect.

I'll tell you what. 10,000 gil. 10,000 gil bet.

10k gil is nothing so I'm not even sure what you were trying to say with that bet. Also, I never said that PGL would be guaranteed to get a tank job, simply that I believe that it would be much more likely to get one than LNC. If you want to make a bet that PGL will get a tank job before LNC, I'll take you up on that, mainly because I honestly think that they'll bring in a light armor tank before they bring in another heavy armor tank. The fact that, from a developmental standpoint, PGL also presents an easier target for "tankification" is just icing on the cake.

[Gamemako]

As I said, you only have to increase def/mdef by 90% and the hp increase it would require would be nowhere *near* 150%.

You're 1000 base HP behind plus 25% of total. At level 50, that's at least a 50% advantage, plus equipment discrepancy.

The positioning, enmity, and "anything else obviously missing" (like... what? tank CDs? PGL already gets 3) aren't even really issues. The devs have explicitly said that they can change the secondary effects of abilities with job changes.

So all it would require is a complete design 180, removing all positional and combo requirements (can't have stance requirement on enmity generation), completely redoing Greased Lightning (can't have warm-up on enmity generation), vastly boosting HP, giving an boosted AoE enmity generation (50 potency means you'll be permanently reliant on cross-class Flash), adding ranged enmity somewhere (not enough ability slots), adding a tanking stance (not enough ability slots), etc. All this so you can what, use 25% Featherfoot against trash mobs and still get stomped by every single opponent of consequence?

And those are actually pretty rare.

Full sets at 23, 32, 38, 46. Rare compared to what, now? You can't even get any asymmetric pants until ilvl40 Paladin set. There's no pre-15 tank gear, so if we neglect the ilvl8-12 asymmetric stuff, then you have all of 10 pieces of pre-30 asymmetric armor. If you wanted to extend up to ilvl50 (excluding DRG AF), you have:

Feet -- 4 tank, 3 asymmetric
Legs -- 4 tank, 2 asymmetric
Waist -- 0 tank, 2 asymmetric
Hands -- 4 tank, 9 asymmetric
Body -- 6 tank, 9 asymmetric
Head -- 6 tank, 10 asymmetric

Total: 24 tank, 35 asymmetric

If you exclude pre-30 equipment, the count would be 18 tank, 25 asymmetric. I would hardly call that "rare" in any case. You're really just not paying any attention. Better still, it's the asymmetric sets which are random as hell. Leg and foot pieces are rare -- there are all of 3 pieces which are not random dungeon drops (Boarskin Skirt on legs, Mythril and Cobalt Sollerets on feet). Tank stuff mostly comes in complete and craftable sets, with just two chestpieces (ilvl40 Kokoroon and ilvl50 Mosshorn) and two helmets (ilvl22 Doctore's and ilvl44 Reinforced Mythril Elmo) orphaned. The only reason you think that asymmetric equipment is "LNC" is because of endgame DRG equipment. That exists because DRG is a DPS job and is the only job from the class at this time.

Hell, PGL actually has a better native CD suite than LNC does which gives them a leg up right off the bat.

Featherfoot vs. Keen Flurry, Second Wind vs. Life Surge. Not really compelling. So what does PGL have? A gimped version of Convalescence for itself (20% over 15s compared to 30% over 20s) that comes at level 42 and is pretty much useless before 48? That's your killer cooldown?

You don't have to make a concession for anything for the 15-30 dungeons when they level sync down. Whispering Dawn has a 60 sec CD so it's nowhere *near* Medica on effectiveness.

AoE isn't a frequent need, but that doesn't suddenly make it a non-issue. As for the "big heal", that's level 30 for both existing jobs, and cleanse is level 40 for SCH (Leeches).

Because, you know, the "squishiest melee", as you call it, would still stay squishy if given the proper tank changes.

Changing that requires a fundamental class design change. You call flat-out redoing every single ability such that it bears nothing at all in common with the base class. Snap Punch combo has to lose all positional bonuses and all combo requirements, making it... well, absolutely nothing like the original. Greased Lightning goes out the door completely, replaced with an entirely separate mechanic. Arm of the Destroyer needs a redo to fix balance -- can't have Silence on primary enmity generator, potency is far too low. Steel Peak requires a redo just as Brutal Swing does (though this issue is shared between LNC and PGL), but Steel Peak comes way too late for a tank. What do you have left? Twin Snakes, Demolish, and Touch of Death as random and irrelevant damage abilities, and then everything else is completely and fundamentally changed. The class has an even weaker CD suite than MRD, meaning key survival mechanics have to be stuffed into job abilities. WAR does this at level 35, throwing everything into 1 ability, while coming with a tank design out the gate (HP, enmity, defense, appropriate abilities). PGL not only needs some absurd stance which increases HP, defense, and enmity by huge amounts, it also needs a ranged pull ability just to have the most basic of functionality. This can't be cross-classed, either. So now you have to grab something like Touch of Death and turn it into a completely unrelated and new ability as well. There's nothing left of PGL at this point except for a few animations.

LNC would require reworking or adding a large amount of gear thanks to existing inconsistencies.... [etc]

• LNC gear is, as I showed previously, fine already. Only thing you'd need to do is add AF and endgame stuff, plus a belt or three.
• Yes, both require tank stances -- no way to avoid it for any DPS-turned-tank.
• Your claim about PGL CDs is still rubbish.
• LNC positional requirements apply only to two DPS-boosting abilities (Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive) and could be handled a number of ways -- a one-off ability or a stance or whatever. PGL requirements apply to every attack in the main combo plus Twin Snakes and have no way to be addressed except to be completely thrown out and a new, unrelated potency number assigned to each attack.
• LNC has a normal combo in Full Thrust. PGL does not. PGL will need to boost the potency of attacks to keep up with enmity needs as well as boost potency of DoTs to address damage issues.

10k gil is nothing so I'm not even sure what you were trying to say with that bet.

Mitt Romney joke.

Also, I never said that PGL would be guaranteed to get a tank job, simply that I believe that it would be much more likely to get one than LNC. If you want to make a bet that PGL will get a tank job before LNC, I'll take you up on that, mainly because I honestly think that they'll bring in a light armor tank before they bring in another heavy armor tank. The fact that, from a developmental standpoint, PGL also presents an easier target for "tankification" is just icing on the cake.

You're on.

For the record, I'm pulling for PGL healer.

[Kitru]

You're 1000 base HP behind plus 25% of total. At level 50, that's at least a 50% advantage, plus equipment discrepancy.

Equipment discrepancy doesn't actually exist, since the left side gear for MNK gets *the exact same amount of VIT as the tank gear*; the gear discrepancy only exists on the right side (there's a *slight* discrepancy on weapon, but it's tiny). Furthermore, going entirely off of MNK base stats means nothing because, as SCH already proves, the devs can easily have the jobs tweak the base attributes immensely: naked and without attributes, my SCH gets 20 less INT, 71 more MND, and 30 more PIE. It's a safe prediction that a PGL tank would get a similar difference in base stats compared to MNK what with the *completely different role*. The only hp tweak that would be needed *at all* would be an hp increase equal to what the WAR gets and that's only for eHP purposes.

So all it would require is a complete design 180, removing all positional and combo requirements (can't have stance requirement on enmity generation), completely redoing Greased Lightning (can't have warm-up on enmity generation), vastly boosting HP, giving an boosted AoE enmity generation (50 potency means you'll be permanently reliant on cross-class Flash), adding ranged enmity somewhere (not enough ability slots), adding a tanking stance (not enough ability slots), etc.

Care to explain why the combo requirements have to be removed because, you know, it's not like WAR and PLD don't already use them? The form cycle that PGL gets would work perfectly fine for a tank. Redoing Greased Lightning makes no sense either since WAR already proves that the devs have no problem with minor damage build up (recognize that I said that Greased Lightning in tank stance *wouldn't get the +dam buff*, which equates to the -dam debuff). As I've pointed out before, it wouldn't need any more of an hp boost than WAR. I'm also curious why you think that Arm of the Destroyer wouldn't get additional enmity added to it; it's not as if it's magically not allowed to have that but everything else is. Furthermore, how is the addition of a tanking stance a problem? That's like saying that Defiance doesn't exist because there isn't space.

The only problem you brought up that doesn't exist purely within your own mind is the issue of not having a ranged attack, which I don't think is a *massive* issue, since it's only really used as a pulling mechanism. Having one tank lack a ranged attack doesn't really penalize it appreciably.

The only reason you think that asymmetric equipment is "LNC" is because of endgame DRG equipment.

No, the reason I think that the asymmetric equipment is "LNC" is because the "LNC" gear is itself rare and, even according to your own numbers, tank distributed LNC gear is in the minority. For a *vast* majority of the game, a LNC is going to be wearing the same gear as a MNK. When it starts getting its own specific gear rather than just random leveling pieces, it's all asymmetrically distributed. On top of that, if you check, you'll notice that even the tank distributed LNC is still itemized for DPS. To get a LNC tank class, you have to overhaul/add an impressive amount of gear, unless you really want the class to have less than a quarter of the tank gear options that the other tanks get.

Featherfoot vs. Keen Flurry, Second Wind vs. Life Surge. Not really compelling. So what does PGL have? A gimped version of Convalescence for itself (20% over 15s compared to 30% over 20s) that comes at level 42 and is pretty much useless before 48? That's your killer cooldown?

Featherfoot is 25% evasion for 15 seconds. Keen Flurry is 80% parry for 20 seconds. Both are on a 90 sec CD. Assuming a baseline 5% dodge rate, Featherfoot is a 21% decrease in damage taken while active and 3.5% decrease in damage taken over time (it goes up to 34.5% and 5.75%, respectively, if you apply the 22.5% increased evasion with the PGL tank like I suggested). With a 20% base parry chance and 20% parry value, Keen Flurry is a 16.67% decrease in damage taken while active and a 3.7% decrease in damage taken over time (and it can't really get appreciably better since you're already capping off the chance of getting a parry).

Second Wind is based off of attack power so it's unaffected by debuffs and Life Surge is based off of damage dealt. Tank stances apply a 20% reduction in damage dealt so we can make the reasonable assumption that a tank will get only 80% of the comparative value between Second Wind and Life Surge that currently applies to DPS. At level 40, with equal attack power, my DRG was critting for 320 with combo'd Full Thrust and my MNK was healing for 440 with Second Wind (not crit). With tank stance factored in, assuming that the ratio remains the same, Life Surge would provide 240 healing once per minute when used with your strongest attack ; Second Wind would provide 440 every 2 minutes, off GCD, whenever you need it. When you factor in that Second Wind can crit, they provide the same amount of healing over time but Second Wind actually allows you to heal when you need it rather than being contingent.

As for Mantra, PLD doesn't get Sentinel til 38 and Enhanced Sentinel til 48, and it's exactly as strong for MNK as Convalescence is for WAR with the same CD and only a slightly shorter duration (15 v. 20). Unless you're willing to say that the strongest CD that WAR gets is utterly horrible, you can't really badmouth Mantra.

Furthermore, look at their DPS CDs: Blood for Blood couldn't be used by a tank effectively; Internal Release is already used by one (and would actually end up being a tank CD if there were some mitigation bonus for scoring a crit, as I suggested in my first post).

So, yes, if you actually look at their CD suites, the PGL CD suite is definitely better for tanks. The self heal is more useful, the DPS buff can actually be used, the mitigation buff works better with tank gear (since Parry Rating increases frequency not value; that 80% is going to be pretty redundant at higher gear ratings), and there's one more tool in their toolbox.

AoE isn't a frequent need, but that doesn't suddenly make it a non-issue.

Before you hit 30/35, yeah, it's a non-issue: there just isn't that much AoE damage before then. The only time you need an AoE heal before Cutter's Cry is when multiple people stand in bad shit or people explicitly screw up a simple mechanic, like the fire adds in Halatali or the lanterns in Haukke Manor. Before Succor at 35, SCH just has Whispering Dawn has a 60 second CD. If AoE healing wasn't a non-issue pre-30/35, SCH would be impossible to play most of the time. You can manage to heal anything that you might have to level sync for with a single heal *easily*.

[quote]As for the "big heal", that's level 30 for both existing jobs, and cleanse is level 40 for SCH (Leeches).

That was kind of my point. When SCH syncs sub-30, they can still heal fully effectively because you don't really *need* an AoE heal or cleanse until your late 30s, and, even then, you can most non-50 content no issue without the cleanse (and I've met more than a few healers that don't use the cleanse on anything except for the Titan gaol debuff). The AoE heal and cleanse are *nice* to have sub-30 or even sub-35, but they're nowhere *near* necessary.

My issue is that you're bringing up sub-30 level syncing as if it were some kind of major issue that needs to be balanced around when, honestly, you don't really need to. As long as you know that they'll have Cure or Physick, which was agreed upon as an acceptable baseline assumption, they can heal the low level dungeons just fine. Hell, a THM or BLM with Physick can heal the low level dungeons just fine thanks to all of the Mind on caster gear before gear "specializes" in the late 30s/40s.

Changing that requires a fundamental class design change.

No, it doesn't unless you're simply coming up with massive modifications that wouldn't be needed in the least. Adding the Wrath stack generation to all of the WAR combos didn't necessitate flat out redoing every single ability. It's modifying a single tag. I'm still not even sure where you're digging up the removal of all combo requirements; you just kind of came up with that entirely on your own out of nothing.

Removing the positionals wouldn't completely change the feeling of the class either: you're still using the attacks in the same order; the only difference is that you're not bouncing from flank to back and back to flank, which you do the same on DRG (unless your issue is simply a problem with DRG only doing it for 2 attacks rather than 4, at which point your setting kind of an arbitrary difference in positional importance based upon how many abilities apply the given benefits) so, unless you think that removing positionals for DRG would completely change the feeling of it as well (especially since you don't even get to access the second LNC combo if you don't get a back attack with the starter; front or side attacking with Impulse Drive doesn't trigger the combo), the feeling is being preserved just as well. The only thing changing is the massive movement aspect, which is present for all mDPS (and likely will *continue* to be the mDPS schtick) and completely absent from tanks.

Greased Lightning would be *exactly* the same with the exception that the Greased Lightning benefits are now 7.5% evasion and 5% attack speed instead of 7.5% damage and 5% attack speed; I'm not entirely sure how you can get "entirely separate mechanic" out of that.

Arm of the Destroyer wouldn't need a massive fix either. It only gets the silence when you use it on Opo-opo form, which means that you have to use it after you use a coeurl form attack, and it puts you into raptor form by using it so you couldn't silence spam with it either. All *it* would require is an additional enmity tag. The silence on it is entirely controllable so there's no tweak needed.

What do you have left? Twin Snakes, Demolish, and Touch of Death as random and irrelevant damage abilities, and then everything else is completely and fundamentally changed.

Have you even *played* MNK? Unless you're hiding a completely different character somewhere else, you've gotten as high as 13, which explains why you really have no idea what you're talking about. Boot Shine and True Strike would be pretty much entirely untouched by removing the positional bonuses. Twin Snakes would actually be affected more than either of those, though it's affected less than Heavy Swing, which fulfills the exact same purpose, so arguing about *that* getting screwed by removing positional bonuses while saying that LNC isn't is just blatantly ignorant. It doesn't even change the actual *feel* of Snap Punch either, since it's an attack with no secondary effect regardless of what you do.

Hell, if you refuse to get rid of positional requirements, *DRG* is going to be the one that changes how it plays and feels completely because, unlike DRG, MNK can actually use all of its attacks while in front of something; DRG is restricted to a single completely vanilla combo. If you actually played the combat classes rather than spending all of your time crafting you might actually understand that.

The class has an even weaker CD suite than MRD, meaning key survival mechanics have to be stuffed into job abilities.

Really? Do you have *any* idea what you're talking about? MAR has Foresight, which is a complete and utter joke; Bloodbath, which is just as much of a joke; and Thrill of Battle, which is laughably weak given its 3 minute CD and 10 second duration. PGL actually has a *stronger* CD suite than MAR by a *huge* amount. Hell, that's the entire reason why MAR has to borrow 2-3 of those PGL CDs: the MAR CD suite *sucks*.

PGL not only needs some absurd stance which increases HP, defense, and enmity by huge amounts

So PGL needs an "absurd" stance that does the exact same thing that Defiance does? Seriously. What are you smoking?

, it also needs a ranged pull ability just to have the most basic of functionality. This can't be cross-classed, either.

Explain to me how a ranged pull ability is "the most basic functionality". You don't *need* a ranged pull ability. Hell, 90% of the time, I don't use Tomahawk or Shield Lob because they're not needed. They're nothing even remotely *close* to "basic functionality"; at best, they're secondary functionality that you'd notice not having a few times in the entire game, especially since PGL already gets Howling Fist for those times when you *absolutely* have to have a ranged attack.

I also find it amusing that you say that it can't be gotten through additionals because, you know, you say so (additionals are assigned arbitrarily; the devs could make Rage of Halone an additional for a PGL and *only* PGL if they wanted; it's just adding that class to the ability's affinities). Tomahawk or Piercing Talon could be put on the additionals list with no problem; the name would be kind of weird, but no stranger than a BLM using Quelling Strikes or a LNC using Straight Shot.

So now you have to grab something like Touch of Death and turn it into a completely unrelated and new ability as well.

Wait, what? Is your entire argument here "refuge in audacity" or do you just have no clue what you're talking about? Touch of Death wouldn't need to be touched at all. The mere suggestion of this is so ludicrous that it boggles the mind that you would even suggest it.

There's nothing left of PGL at this point except for a few animations.

Except, you know, everything that wouldn't be touched if the person doing the changes weren't a complete and utter *idiot*. The attack string/rotation and playstyle would be preserved with the exception of not having positions. Greased Lightning would be tweaked *slightly*. Everything else would remain *exactly as is*. You're acting as if removing the positional requirement on an attack and adding a high enmity modifier completely and utterly changes everything about the ability. Using that logic, WAR is *completely and utterly* different from MAR because, when you turn WAR, some of your attacks start generating Wrath stacks. Are you even *reading* what you're saying here or just trying to come up with any feasible change that might be required and then blowing it monumentally out of proportion and decrying it as the end of world on purpose?

LNC gear is, as I showed previously, fine already. Only thing you'd need to do is add AF and endgame stuff, plus a belt or three.

Except that it's not. Hell, the very fact that LNC gear is so schizophrenic about its defense/mdef allotment (it can be low symmetrical, asymmetrical, or high symmetrical) means that the itemization for it would be even *wonkier* than I already suggested.

Your claim about PGL CDs is still rubbish.

Unless you actually *look* at their CDs rather than just counting them, ignoring the most powerful, and calling it a day.

LNC positional requirements apply only to two DPS-boosting abilities (Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive) and could be handled a number of ways -- a one-off ability or a stance or whatever. PGL requirements apply to every attack in the main combo plus Twin Snakes and have no way to be addressed except to be completely thrown out and a new, unrelated potency number assigned to each attack.

Have you actually looked at what the positional bonuses actually are or did you do another "I counted but didn't actually look at them"? It's an increased crit chance on the first attack and second attack and increased potency on the other 2. All secondary effects are entirely preserved. With DRG, you miss out on your entire second combo and get none of the much more important secondary effects. While PGL has *more* positional requirements/bonuses but DRG is impacted by those positional requirement/bonuses just as as much. If you actually look at what the positionals do rather than just counting them, it's pretty evident that they're both positionally dependent.

LNC has a normal combo in Full Thrust. PGL does not. PGL will need to boost the potency of attacks to keep up with enmity needs as well as boost potency of DoTs to address damage issues.

Unless you, you know, just remove the positional requirements and fold the effects into the baseline performance of the ability. I find it amusing that you seem to think that the entirety of a tank's rotation is perfectly fine with a single combo with no secondary effects, though. It's like you honestly believe that PLD isn't painfully boring to play.

Mitt Romney joke.

Not really. You get more than that by running AK/WP 2-3 times. If you've got a character in full DL, a second 50, or a reasonably high crafting class, you can't really claim that 10k gil is anything resembling an impressive amount of gil unless you're just bad at money management; it takes less than an hour to get that. Hell, you can make more than 10k with a gathering class in your 20s in less than an hour if you're remotely market savvy.

I'm nowhere *near* top 1% or even top 10%, but 10k isn't really all that much. It's like betting lunch at a diner.

[MartaDemireux]

Jobs aren't actually any easier to create than Classes, because to create a new Job for an existing class, they would need to first pick a Job that is similar to the class it's coming from, modify all the existing skills for the new Role, then add new Job specific skills and then create a story for the Job to work through and gain its Job skills from.

But they really really are easier.

New Job entails:
Creating 5 new abilities and their animations
Adjusting some class abilities (no need to modify all of them)
Create 5 quests and a storyline

New Class entails:
Creating a new weapon type which requires new base animations.
Creating 17-18 new abilities and their animations
Creating 1-2 new jobs (5-10 new abilities) and their animations
Balancing 11 new traits
Create 9-10 class quests and storyline
Create 5-10 job quests and 1-2 storylines

A new job does not need to be similar to the base class either. Again with ACN/SMN/SCH. The role they gave SCH is nothing like the role they gave ACN/SMN. They even changed SCH substantially from how it is in other titles in the series. It never once had pets/fairies and was only given healing magic roughly half of the time and even then rarely could function as the sole healer. They've usually been and played better as a debuffer or damage dealer (similar to how SMN is now). On that note, SMN also has taken an entirely different approach than it has in the series.

The assumption of cross-class is already there for Protect. That's not really the problem. The problem is that for level 15 jobs, you have to do something to account for the ability to queue into 15-30 without proper abilities. SCH gives them all to the pet right off the bat for AoE heals, but for others, you'd have to make some concession for making it work.

Jobs unlock at level 30. Even for jobs that are the same as their class if they sync down to 15 they are much less effective than if they were to go as their class. I joined my friend as a DRG in a low level instance only to notice I would have been much better off going LNC because the job abilities were locked out and I only had like 1 cross class available. As LNC I would have had 2 or 3 cross class abilities. Easy solution and one I can see them implementing is the inability to sync a job under level 30.