Tank Classes Off Tank DPS

[Eronn]

WAR burst is just as bad as PLD burst considering you need Maim and Storm's Eye up first before their damage is on par.

PLD has the same strength, determination, and weapon damage as the WAR. They both deal the same damage per potency with the same gear.

PLD > WAR for single target
WAR > PLD for AoE

I'll work on some numbers over the weekend.

I don't mean formula as in stats, rather as in the output of those stats + potency differs per class, though Paladin vs Warrior may be the same. I don't know.

Berserk also is a multiplier on your Strength. So it has some relation to weapon damage but not directly.

You also can not rely on potency due to Weapon Damage being a factor in the damage calculation of weapon skills.

It may be true that Paladins do more single target than Warriors, but my main point is the math in the first post is very incorrect.

[Ruminate]

Every single melee class uses the exact same damage calculation. If their strength, weapon damage, and determination are equal, then 100 potency from class X will deal the same damage as 100 potency from class Y. 100 potency is equivelent to 100% of the strength, weapon damage, and determination calculation. 200 potency is double that calculation. 50 potency is half. The math in the first post is correct.

Berserk is a multiplier on your damage. Your damage is based on your strength, weapon damage, and determination. You can multiply your strength, WD, and determination by 50% then factor in potency, OR you can multiply your potency by 50% then factor in str, WD, dtr. Either way, you get the exact same damage in the end.

[Eronn]

Every single melee class uses the exact same damage calculation. If their strength, weapon damage, and determination are equal, then 100 potency from class X will deal the same damage as 100 potency from class Y. 100 potency is equivelent to 100% of the strength, weapon damage, and determination calculation. 200 potency is double that calculation. 50 potency is half. The math in the first post is correct.

Berserk is a multiplier on your damage. Your damage is based on your strength, weapon damage, and determination. You can multiply your strength, WD, and determination by 50% then factor in potency, OR you can multiply your potency by 50% then factor in str, WD, dtr. Either way, you get the exact same damage in the end.

No, and no to both of those. Look into the data that has been developed specifically by Valky and other Beta testers. Different classes are slightly different in their calculations. Determination is still currently an unknown as far as I know. In simulators we currently treat it as a correction at the end of the formula, but no one knows for certain.

For your reading:

Valky's Methodoloy: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=179/#Interpreting

[Ruminate]

You say "no", then post a link that says the following:

"Final note: The vast majority of my testing for damage output was done on DRG. I did testing on other classes/jobs just to compare, and for the most part they follow the same algorithm."

...really?

[Savish]

You didn't even bother to include damage added by crit chance from internal release and defiance and how much base str/crit chance does a warrior/paladin have at lvl 50? How about parsing a warrior vs paladin and then come back with some actual data and not a bunch of biased nonsense.

[Kiteless]

thats only a minor dps different... considering our survivability is lower aswell..
whats WAR good for ?

Not very much.

You didn't even bother to include damage added by crit chance from internal release and defiance and how much base str/crit chance does a warrior/paladin have at lvl 50? How about parsing a warrior vs paladin and then come back with some actual data and not a bunch of biased nonsense.

Except defiance reduces damage dealt by 25%, which would make those numbers far lower across the board for WAR, and he did state the overall damage increase that Internal Release adds. And it's not a whole lot.

[Savish]

Not very much.




Except defiance reduces damage dealt by 25%, which would make those numbers far lower across the board for WAR, and he did state the overall damage increase that Internal Release adds. And it's not a whole lot.

So whats the base crit/str for warrior/paladin?, wheres the math for internal release? I don't see any of that listed and he doesn't even use the optimal DPS rotation for a warrior he just picked the lowest damage rotation to spam.

Im all for giving warriors a DPS boost or even a DPS stance available for off tanking if they indeed need one but that first post isn't even close to an accurate portrayal of true DPS because they don't have half the data they would need to even have an accurate idea of what the 2 classes actual DPS is, get some in game parses or go away.

[Hachiko]

A few notes on this. Tank sustained single target damage is largely irrelevant so far outside of taking two tanks to Titan, even there is not that relevant. Burst damage is much more relevant. Warrior have a bit of a boost here with Internal Release and Berserk. Berserk is one of the best dps cooldowns available and its debuff is dispellable even.

Second, Warriors should not use Storm's Eye spam. It should be Storm's Combo > Butcher's Combo x2, repeat. With Defiance off, lead with 1-2 Storm's Combo and you should then be set with threat.

Third, are you sure Paladin's damage formula is the same as Warrior? You can not directly translate Potency -> Damage without the classes formula. They don't differ that greatly, but they do differ.

Also Fracture is not worth using on a Warrior, in simulations and in practice it is so negligible it is not worth any mental focus.

Well, Berserk, if you ignore the debuff is the second best DPS cooldown available, next to Rampart which is significantly better. Unchained is kind of silly to use, because if you're not tanking and in defiance stance and you use unchained you will get threat. You can get the "buff" of unchained any time you like if you're not tanking. Simply turn off Defiance. If you aren't tanking this shouldn't be an issue.

A WAR out of tank stance spamming 2x butcher's combo and 1x storm's combo will potentially pull off of the MT.

I'm almost 100% sure potency works the same way for all classes. That's why every class has a "Damage" stat on their weapon. I thought my explanation of potency and auto attack potency would clear that up. The damage is modified by STR and Determination, obviously, but that stuff is extraneous to how much damage the rotation puts out. The only difference is that auto attacks as a PAL will be something like 73 potency, while auto attacks for a WAR will be 113 potency, which is why I normalized it to the same speed. Do you have some explanation why Potency on a PLD would be calculated differently for weapon skills than it is for auto attacks?

Fracture is negligible but it's a marginal dps increase in theory.

Berserk is a multiplier on your damage. Your damage is based on your strength, weapon damage, and determination. You can multiply your strength, WD, and determination by 50% then factor in potency, OR you can multiply your potency by 50% then factor in str, WD, dtr. Either way, you get the exact same damage in the end.

Berserk is actually not simply increasing your potency by 50%. That would be equivalent to a 50% increase in damage, and Berserk is definitely not a 50% increase in damage. It's close at 40%, but as your weapon damage goes up the relative contribution of attack power is less, so it works out to less than 50%. It's more than 50% at low weapon damage, and less at high weapon damage, when all other stats are held relatively constant.

It may be true that Paladins do more single target than Warriors, but my main point is the math in the first post is very incorrect.

No, it isn't. Some things are approximations, but they're close enough to make the point.

[Ruminate]

Ohhhh, I read the tooltip wrong. I thought it was similar to Fight or Flight where it increases physical damage, not just attack power. Huh, I guess the WAR is even worse than I thought.