It's not just the WAR that needs tweaking

[Ruminate]

The devs balanced raids by having 2 tanks. If you don't have the tools to be a secondary tank, then you might as well replace them with a DPS. The tools I listed prevent that.

A PLD's core ability is not on a 30s cooldown, or any cooldown for that matter. A PLD's core abilities are Fast Blade, Savage Blade, and Rage of Halone. If you can't fathom how this makes PLDs a decent DPS machine, then you clearly haven't compared the potency on these skills with the skills the DPS have to work with. Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within are akin to the buffs and abilities off GCD that DPS have available.

And what do you mean "it takes a crystal ball to read"? Cover is another "oh shit" button. Are you seriously suggesting that "oh shit" buttons are too hard to use?

[LunarRei]

A PLD's core ability is not on a 30s cooldown, or any cooldown for that matter. A PLD's core abilities are Fast Blade, Savage Blade, and Rage of Halone. If you can't fathom how this makes PLDs a decent DPS machine, then you clearly haven't compared the potency on these skills with the skills the DPS have to work with. Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within are akin to the buffs and abilities off GCD that DPS have available.

I will assume that you did not fail at reading comprehension and simply forgot what you had said. Let me help you out:

A smart PLD can do even more damage than that WAR due to a combination of Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within(a 250/300 potency attack on a 25/30s cooldown, off the GCD. Even just one of them is better than the BRD's vaunted Bloodletter[150 potency, 15s cooldown] due to swords having higher base damage than bows).

Now try reading what I said again. You list three abilities and I point out that the core ability in that group was Spirits Within. Also, you compare these to a ranged classes level 12 ability as if it were supposed to be on par? I think you are making my point for me.

Yes, you correctly listed the PLD's core enmity generating abilities. They are good, but not great damage. Potency is not the end all and if you think that activating Sword Oath suddenly makes us a viable DPS class then our discussion ends now. No point in going any further with you.

And what do you mean "it takes a crystal ball to read"? Cover is another "oh shit" button. Are you seriously suggesting that "oh shit" buttons are too hard to use?

Using a CD on yourself is easy enough to do, you know you have high incoming damage or you want to spare the healer some MP or give them time, whatever. That is a part of life as a tank. What makes Cover so worthless, in my opinion, is how narrow the use cases are. You listed one and it can happen. But why are you the only thinking "Oh shit"? Does not the other tank have an option, or the healer? Suddenly, you swoop in like a savior and completely waste somebody else's CD and shift the healers focus to you.

So, no, it isn't a normal "Oh shit" button. It is a button that needs communication and if it needs communication, then it isn't reactive. Beyond that very narrow chance to use it, when else would you rather use that than something else, like Provoke or Flash? You could Cover a healer who just took group agro, I guess. But then Cover is the bad tank button. It just feels annoying.

I'm sorry you disagree. I don't think 2 or 3 of our 5 job abilities should be for secondary tanking. In practice, we only have 4 since 2 of them are stances. The WAR has no option for DPS or secondary tanking, so I'm not sure why you think it is ok for PLD's. There might even be an argument that the GLA is a better secondary tank than a PLD since they would have many more options for the whole of the fight. That would take some looking into, though.

[MBTL90]

Spirits Within: Spirits within is off the gcd. At the very least, it is (usually) a free, 300 potency attack that you can use in between your threat combo. This makes it, before damage modifiers, one of the hardest hitting melee skills in the game. If that were all, it would still be fine, but it is also a silence. Of recent note, this is hugely useful on the Dhorme Chimera, because it means you can do other things besides just auto attack and still interupt.

Hallowed Ground: I don't get your complaints about this at all. This is spell is awsome. It's funny seeing warriors complain about paladins and not mention this ability, because this is the true reason paladins are OP. 10 seconds immunity to damage, and it doesn't even drop threat like it did in WoW? This is the ultimate tanking ability.

[Ruminate]

Also, you compare these to a ranged classes level 12 ability as if it were supposed to be on par? I think you are making my point for me.

Yes, you correctly listed the PLD's core enmity generating abilities. They are good, but not great damage. Potency is not the end all and if you think that activating Sword Oath suddenly makes us a viable DPS class then our discussion ends now. No point in going any further with you.

You're right. No point in furthering this discussion, especially when your logic is "higher level abilities are supposed to be superior to lower level ones"

I guess it'll be awhile before someone else also does the math and finds out that PLD's CP per second is actually higher than the WAR's CP per second.

[LunarRei]

I think the point that is being missed is that the skills don't flow and the use cases are too marginal. When comparing to other jobs who get major and obvious benefits from their abilities, we are stuck with really lackluster ones that players are finding ways to stick in to situations, rather than complementing the classes play style. I don't think all of you that are defending these are even reading what I had said. Aside from Cover, I actually argued for their usefulness for the most part.

You're right. No point in furthering this discussion, especially when your logic is "higher level abilities are supposed to be superior to lower level ones"

I guess it'll be awhile before someone else also does the math and finds out that PLD's CP per second is actually higher than the WAR's CP per second.

Are low level abilities supposed to be stronger than high ones? If my logic is flawed, then you are just fucked. Also, the emphasis was on Job abilities which should be even more powerful. Fire<FireIII<Flare, Cure<CureII<Benediction, etc. I don't think anyone would argue that higher level abilities should be weaker than low levels, but your poorly chosen words make it seem like you are in favor of it. I'm still flabbergasted that you think we are some sort of dedicated secondary tank.

Ultimately, I am not complaining about the PLD's ability to perform its role. The problem is that the best parts of it's role are found as a GLA. Looking at each job side by side and the only other one that stands out as being completely lackluster is the BLM (some might argue the BRD, but I like them personally). But that also isn't to say that what the BLM has is useless, far from it. It just doesn't feel very Black Magey.

Once again, 2 stances, an ability that people are forcing themselves to use in f'd up situations instead of playing right, a high damage silence on 30 sec CD, and a bubble. Nevermind, I am convinced. All those 1.0 people are stupid for thinking their Paladin was better.