For all you warrior tanks out there... end game we are not viable.

[JiyuSteelheart]

Warriors +15% healing and 25% more HP

Paladins -20% damage

Warriors are just as viable as PLDs....I have friends on Gilgamesh that 2 war tanked Cadeceus

BUt PLD make better MT single Target Tanks and Warriors are better off tanks and aoe tanks IMO

[Vic_Viper]

Doesn't change the fact we take an insane amount of damage compared to a paladin. If you think warriors are fine you're just jerking yourself here to post that you're on Turn 4.

Not impressive for one thing and you ignore everything that has been posted. Go brag somewhere else loser.

tl;dr petty bragging from an idiot.

You want proof? here is server 1st ADS: http://www.twitch.tv/lleuca/c/2892948

I agree with a lot of the points here. Yes the PLD cooldowns allow him to much more easily control how much damage he is taking which makes managing heals and rough group situations easier.

Warriors get chunked hard and can only respond with reactive burst healing. We can take the hits due to our massive HP, but there is more pressure on the heals to top us off quickly.

Does this automatically mean every group is required to have 2 PLDs? Not in my view. The very next fight in coil 4 elevator involves managing large numbers of adds which is something the WAR excels at.

A lot depends on the fight mechanics. Snake in coil 1 does favor the PLD as a tank, but that hardly makes the WAR an un-viable class.

[chrismeyer35]

damn that thing was a beast lol

[Kiara]

There are 2+ flavors of tank: one is most defense oriented with least damage output, the other is somewhat less defensive and higher damage output. I'll call them PLD and WAR to keep it easy.

Either:
1. WAR will be fully adequate as a tank in toughest settings. Then because of the higher damage WAR is always preferred.
*or*
2. WAR will be inadequate as a tank in toughest settings. It may be fine in lower settings or when the WAR outgears the fight. But then PLD is heavily preferred.

Best game design is to probably nudge them as close together as possible. But that's not easy, and it's looking like #2 is actually the case here currently. Also keep in mind that this balance can change at any patch.

Hi Rhaze,

Definitely. For those that didn't get to play Final Fantasy XIV 1.0, it's been an ongoing battle with players decrying Yoshi P for "Warriors are too weak" & "Paladin is too weak!", and it changed from major patch to patch.

I still remember Warriors with Steel Cyclone spam in 1.0. For a while, they were so OP and did so much damage, it didn't matter what damage reduction Paladins had (in fact, some content had multiple Warriors and just skipped inviting other DPS). Then Yoshi P nerfed Steel Cyclone dramatically. And then 2.0 launches. We'll see what happens next.

[Kitru]

Warriors get chunked hard and can only respond with reactive burst healing. We can take the hits due to our massive HP, but there is more pressure on the heals to top us off quickly.

WAR and PAL receive the same percentage damage taken from any given source. The issue with WAR isn't in the survival of single big hits. It's in the amount of healing required over the long term: since WARs have only 15% +healing when it would require 25% to actually equal the benefits of Shield Oath, WAR requires 8.7% more healing over any period of time than a PAL does (the default self healing from improved Bloodbath and Storm's Edge are a rough approximation of the PAL's ability to block rather than a capability that makes up for greater external healing requirements).

It's a common misconception that being weaker is the same as not being viable. It's pretty easy to prove that a class is viable by simply seeing someone complete content as that class in that job. Viability, however, is not what should be striven for as the crux of balanced (i.e. good) class design. Viability is simply the bare minimum performance that a class needs to achieve. A class that is twice as effective as another isn't a balanced game construct, even if both are capable of clearing content.

As it stands, both PAL and WAR are viable tanks. As it stands, PAL is also the better tank than a WAR thanks to the mean mitigation discrepancy. The supposition that somehow WAR's higher damage somehow justifies lower mitigation is completely ignorant of what balance actually entails, considering that you don't bring a tank to deal damage (nor does the difference in PAL and WAR damage actually enough to make a noticeable impact, especially given that the benefit gets diluted the more DPS you are running with; without a parser, you'd never notice a difference between a PAL's and a WAR's damage in an 8+ man run).

Yes, PAL needs to get a bit of a damage/threat boost, but damage/threat is a minor concern compared to the mitigation differences between the two classes. An 8.7% difference seems comparatively minor *now*, but as content gets tighter and tighter, that difference is going to get ever more noticeable.

[ZyloWolfBane]

Why is it that people are saying that the WAR is inferior? Why isn't any of the potential blame being put on the healers? How do we know these healers aren't less geared than the WARs? How do we know they've just been too used to healing the lower level content and just simply aren't prepared for the actual endgame?

I'm sorry but there's too many variables, not to mention the DPS could also be to blame if you need a boss to die before a specific mechanic pops up that will wreck the tank and they aren't hitting the mark. So why is it solely the fault of the WAR for not picking a PLD instead?

[Kelethar]

This is a really odd argument to make. PLD has a truck load more of CDs to survive off of any encounter. But if that PLD is as geared as the OP, that CD means nothing once it's gone. You're talking about a few seconds out of a fight that you're praying to stay alive with. Besides the gear you have curently is not even optimized for tanking. Half of your accessories and other slots are normal crappy DPS pieces. No where near enough mitigation or farming done to even begin to cry "Broken Class". Plenty of streamers on Twitchtv that have full Darklight, in every slot and their Relic weapon, making good attempts in Bahamuts Coil. Surprised this thread event lived for so long on this silly argument. This is like comparing Warrior and Druid tanking in Wow back in Vanilla/BC

[brainchild]

This is a really odd argument to make. PLD has a truck load more of CDs to survive off of any encounter. But if that PLD is as geared as the OP, that CD means nothing once it's gone. You're talking about a few seconds out of a fight that you're praying to stay alive with.

Except that's exactly how many raid fights work. They involve popping cooldowns before predictable damage phases, e.g., Sarth-3D breath or something. Otherwise, you might as well chain your cooldowns together. But wait! Paladins have better mitigation too AND better "oh shit" buttons. I know math is hard, but do try to read the earlier posts in the thread. It's simple arithmetic.

The only good cooldown warriors innately have is Thrill of Battle--an actual "oh shit" button. The others are basically meant to be used off cooldown. Convalescence is another great one, but it's obviously inferior to the paladin version.

Edit: Inner Beast-Infuriate is pretty good if you can avoid overhealing.

[Kiteless]

Inner Beast-Infuriate is pretty good if you can avoid overhealing, yes, but the main issue with it is that effective use of it requires limiting the use of all other warrior job skills. They need to give a reason to make the other wrath-based skills worth using, and make the usage of wrath as an actual resource more dynamic, as opposed to just using it as a quick "oh shit" button.

Defiance/Wrath has the potential to really reinforce the idea of Warrior being a class that constantly straddles the line between survivability and offensive prowess, but it's really not being used effectively right now. As much as I enjoy the class now, there's a lot they can do to make it more interesting, as well as more effective.

[Delorean]

Warriors +15% healing and 25% more HP

Paladins -20% damage

well let me ask you something

As a tank, would you rather just sit on your hands and not take 20% of all the damage in a fight, or would you rather have more health and +healing which is not always active and take time build back up that will be circumvented by fast and heavy damage in addition to your job to survive being in the hands of another player?

I don't mind Paladins having an edge, or "flavor" as it were. But Paladins have more than an edge.

"Paladins make better MT and Warriors make better AE tank"

Please enlighten me, tell me how Warriors are better AE tanks than Paladins. Or are you just trying to say a mediocre Warrior is better at AE tanking than a mediocre Paladin?

I have killed everything up to Garuda and there was barely any need for a second tank at all. DRG could have done what I did. Ifrit was easy sauce. And apparently you only need 1 tank for Titan.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing any of this content people keep talking about that even requires another tank. Like Hydra? Maybe. But so far that's it.

I mean lets say even if there were a reason to have an offtank for any of that content, explain to me how a little bit of damage, a healing bonus that may not always be up and a handful of crap cooldowns and 1 decent one is better than a handful of premier mitigation tools.

I'm gonna play Warrior no matter what you say, because I just don't give a you know what and Warrior is the only class worth primarily playing in any game ever, but I think it's important not to spread misinformation and keep parroting bullshit.

Aside from Defiance not granting Healing Bonus baseline and just being crap anyway when compared to Shield Oath, I am fine with where we are at. I don't care if we get buffed.

Because it seems to me so far that everything is so easy anyway that all of PLDs abilities amount to little more than cushioning for sloppy play.