Tonberry Progression Thread

[RapBreon]

Xivarmory lacks a few things:
1. Specific bosses killed
2. Specific server firsts
3. Date/time of last kill

Its method of tracking progression by exploration achievements is also exploitable. Get another guild to zone you into each turn for the achievements and tada xivarmory thinks you've killed those bosses. Also as you've mentioned, only 1 person in the FC needs the achievements and it'll count for the entire FC - i shouldn't have to explain why this is bad. Also, most progression threads - this one included - only list guilds that want to be listed. It is a voluntary opt-in listing.

Syncness covered this, I agreed, it's far from complete. Allow me however to demonstrate its value. Check the first post of this thread, then check the link. Notice the massive gap between Eikon and Mirai (apparently 3rd and 5th?), there are what would appear to be far more contenders for Twintania that this thread would have you believe.

While in hind-sight I should have probably explained in my original post the value of it, I'll reiterate; multiple sources is a boon. They both fill out each others gap in information and point out inconsistencies (which this thread is also in possession of).

As for it being exploitable and its method of tracking, for this content cycle it would hardly be relevant. It would've been too early to release date for people to care - or know -about having some server first FC let them have an exploration achievement to whack off to and at this stage, whilst people would care, almost anybody serious enough to kill Twins has done T4 legit. Sweeping statements, I agree; but if a Dark Horse who needed a run to Twins to feel better about their ego randomly got world first on Twintania, I would...I don't even know what I would do.

TL;DR: value in cross-referencing, mkkkkkkkkkkk. Next time I'll be sure to leave a thesis explaining my actions :P

[SezaruRei]

Most of the guilds between Eikon and Mirai are JP guilds, of which i have heard do a combined Coil raid. If only 1-3 members from each FC cleared turns 1-4, do you think they deserve that 'ranking' on xivarmory? That's why i only update confirmed kills in this thread and only grant credit to FCs with at least 80% of their members present. Also some guilds prefer not to be listed (well known WoW guild Nurfed opted out of its server's progression thread for years), which is why i don't presume to add anyone unless they request it.

You seem to misunderstand what i meant about exploiting the tracking. If a guild had to get a free pass into coil for the achievements, they won't be killing Twintania at all (no gear and more importantly no skill - else they would have gotten to turn 5 themselves). If an FC does do this then their listing on xivarmory is clearly misrepresentation, but no one can tell.

(1000 character limit wtf? Continued in next post...)

[RapBreon]

Most of the guilds between Eikon and Mirai are JP guilds, of which i have heard do a combined Coil raid. If only 1-3 members from each FC cleared turns 1-4, do you think they deserve that 'ranking' on xivarmory?

Absolutely, did the boss not yield loot to them? I would recommend making a note however calling it a combined attempt, or whatever organisational title that makes people feel better, so as to not upset the patriotic. The point is they may not have all had the same tag, but that group did kill the boss, thus are a certain depth into progression, this could mean that despite differing tags could still be contending for a milestone. Let me ask you, if they got world/region/server first Twins, do they deserve it because they weren't in the possession of the same tag?

That's why i only update confirmed kills in this thread and only grant credit to FCs with at least 80% of their members present. Also some guilds prefer not to be listed (well known WoW guild Nurfed opted out of its server's progression thread for years), which is why i don't presume to add anyone unless they request it.

Hence the gaps.

You seem to misunderstand what i meant about exploiting the tracking. If a guild had to get a free pass into coil for the achievements, they won't be killing Twintania at all (no gear and more importantly no skill - else they would have gotten to turn 5 themselves). If an FC does do this then their listing on xivarmory is clearly misrepresentation, but no one can tell.

That is exactly what I said about it's relevancy in the way it tracks. Maybe I wasn't clear.

Additionally, you can tell by digging around, check their average Ilvl and then check the pieces of the highest Ilvl (Allagan or heroes?). Check the ones with the achievements. Cross-reference with the loot-tables. If they got run they'd be missing certain pieces. It's just time consuming. Doable but pointless, because they wouldn't be contenders anyway, due to the above point of people exploiting the system so early into the games life as to get a 'fake progression boost', would be...unprobable at best. However, it would become more relevant next content cycle where the system is more well known.

(1000 character limit wtf? Continued in next post...)

Coding is terrible, you can edit posts after you've posted them and exceed the limit.

The main usefulness of xivarmory is as a general comparison between FCs of different servers, most top FCs already know about xivarmory without being told, and most also take its rankings with a huge grain of salt.

Oh yes, it should be taken with a grain of salt, just like this page should be, but when our forces combine we make Captain less questionable! Also more than top guilds have posted in this thread, thus it may be a useful link for them.

A progression thread still has great value, certainly more than the woefully inadequate server page on xivarmory.

Which was never my point, my point which I have pointed out twice now is this;

multiple sources is a boon

I would like BOTH to exist. I'm not even defending it's reliability, nor have I been, I've been defending its usefulness combined with this thread. Even the most inaccurate information source is useful as an orientation device, as long as it is supplemented by something else. The fact it was never linked in a thread like this is questionable though.

[SezaruRei]

The main usefulness of xivarmory is as a general comparison between FCs of different servers, most top FCs already know about xivarmory without being told, and most also take its rankings with a huge grain of salt. Long delays in Lodestone updates, further magnified by xivarmory's own slow updating really hampers its reliability and accuracy. As an example, my summoner gear profile is still outdated by a week, because the xivarmory scan didn't coincide with lodestone showing my summoner job/gear.

A progression thread still has great value, certainly more than the woefully inadequate server page on xivarmory.



edit: Oh and also, xivarmory uses exploration achievements for ranking, and there is no achievement for turn 4, which means that the current rankings are only representative of who cleared turn 2 and explored turn 3 faster.

[SezaruRei]

edit: Oh and also, xivarmory uses exploration achievements for ranking, and there is no achievement for turn 4, which means that the current rankings are only representative of who cleared turn 2 and explored turn 3 faster.

The above makes xivarmory not even useful as a second source, unless you're only interested in turn 2 rankings. Also, this thread was made before the existence of xivarmory, and with the current state its in i never saw it fit to be linked.

[RapBreon]

The above makes xivarmory not even useful as a second source, unless you're only interested in turn 2 rankings. Also, this thread was made before the existence of xivarmory, and with the current state its in i never saw it fit to be linked.

While your disdain for the website is very duly noted; I would be willing to bet that there is a pretty strong correlation between the speed at which T2 and T4 are downed (this thread itself supports that assumption), it remains useful, especially if you're willing to dig to find out more. Just remember you represent the server with this thread, what you see fit may cut it for your guild, but not necessarily the rest of us.

I'm just preaching at this point in defence of the website, I don't care as much as I'm making out, merely bored as fuuuuuck. Anywho thanks for indulging me; you've made procrastinating much more enjoyable than it would've otherwise been.

P.S Your hat cracks me up.

[SezaruRei]

If xivarmory was done as well as wowprogress i would have linked it.
Regarding the listings in this thread itself, this is just how progression threads have been run for the majority of all MMOs etc. You can check other server's threads. Progression threads are not meant to be a 'visitor's guide to all guilds on the server'. Most of the non-JP progressed raiding FCs on the server are listed. I'm also not sure about listing JP guilds. If they posted here i would list them, but i'm not sure if they even read this subforum, or if they would even care to be listed on an English progression thread. One of the main uses of a progression thread for outsiders is for those looking to transfer to this server and are looking for a guild/FC to join. Listing the JP FCs isn't terribly helpful to those people, so i believe the thread is sufficient in its functionality.

[RapBreon]

If xivarmory was done as well as wowprogress i would have linked it.
Regarding the listings in this thread itself, this is just how progression threads have been run for the majority of all MMOs etc. You can check other server's threads. Progression threads are not meant to be a 'visitor's guide to all guilds on the server'. Most of the non-JP progressed raiding FCs on the server are listed. I'm also not sure about listing JP guilds. If they posted here i would list them, but i'm not sure if they even read this subforum, or if they would even care to be listed on an English progression thread. One of the main uses of a progression thread for outsiders is for those looking to transfer to this server and are looking for a guild/FC to join. Listing the JP FCs isn't terribly helpful to those people, so i believe the thread is sufficient in its functionality.

Oh, oh, hah! The main use for a progression thread (for high performing guilds, don't want to clump more casual guilds with that statement, they'll get cranky) is almost entirely centred on wanking about how much better you are than the rest (not that I'm judging, I'm no better on this front, probably worse). Such is the nature of competition.

I just think it would be 'more sufficient' to recognise the progress of those uninterested in this joyous wankfest we enjoy so much or don't visit official forums (a lot of people). Regardless I'm pushing this too brazenly now, no hard feelings mate, just avoiding work like the plague.

[SezaruRei]

I'm not really offended, don't worry. You're right, the main use for the guilds themselves is for pride and epeen and such, but for outsiders its "hmmm who's good on this server that i can apply to?" and english speaking players wouldn't be interested in applying to the JP guilds anyway, so there isn't much reason to list them if they don't request it themselves.

[RapBreon]

I'm not really offended, don't worry. You're right, the main use for the guilds themselves is for pride and epeen and such, but for outsiders its "hmmm who's good on this server that i can apply to?" and english speaking players wouldn't be interested in applying to the JP guilds anyway, so there isn't much reason to list them if they don't request it themselves.

Well, I guess I'll just have to settle with it sitting on the 8th page somewhere.

And now the 10th, hehehehe;

http://xivarmory.com/