Let's talk Monks - A Discussion For The DPS Freaks

[enil]

Theoretically DoTs should add more DPS as their potency over the duration is more than any other Monk attack.

Demolish = 240 total potency
Touch of Death = 270 total potency
Fracture = 220 total potency

However, doing many many AK speed runs I find that bosses die noticeably faster when I use a simple rotation (DK - Twin Snakes - Snap Punch) as opposed to keeping DoTs rolling.

If may just be perception.
Not using DoTs means you don't need to watch your DoTs as closely and there's much less effort and time goes faster.
Would be interesting if you timed the boss fights/checked total time and see if it's actually quicker. (Possibly your party members got gear upgrades or getting better at their rotations?)

[OrganizationXIll]

Theoretically DoTs should add more DPS as their potency over the duration is more than any other Monk attack.

Demolish = 240 total potency
Touch of Death = 270 total potency
Fracture = 220 total potency

However, doing many many AK speed runs I find that bosses die noticeably faster when I use a simple rotation (DK - Twin Snakes - Snap Punch) as opposed to keeping DoTs rolling.

You can't calculate the potency exactly like you did. It doesn't tick every three seconds based on when you cast it. It is based on an internal global tick timer, that is every three seconds. Basically, everyone's DoT's tick at the EXACT same time across the ENTIRE server. Some times you can cast a DoT and get 6 ticks out of an 18s and sometimes it might be only 5 ticks.

[Garlyle]

You can't calculate the potency exactly like you did. It doesn't tick every three seconds based on when you cast it. It is based on an internal global tick timer, that is every three seconds. Basically, everyone's DoT's tick at the EXACT same time across the ENTIRE server. Some times you can cast a DoT and get 6 ticks out of an 18s and sometimes it might be only 5 ticks.

If your DoT duration is 18 seconds, you should get a tick at
0.1-3.0 seconds in
3.1-6.0 seconds in
6.1-9.0 seconds in
9.1-12.0 seconds in
12.1-15.0 seconds in
15.1-18.0 seconds in

All the DoTs (at least for monk?) are in multiples of 3, so regardless of when the tick is, you should always be getting every 'tick' of damage, whether the server timer for DoTs is the moment you apply the DoT or you literally just missed it. If it is possible to get one less tick of damage, it would be extremely rare.

[zipzo]

I tried to test two rotation, one with every attack in (switching between Bootshine and Dragon Kick and also alternating between Twin Snakes and True Strikes) and just Dragon Kick -> Twin Snakes->Demolish/Snap Punch.

I always had the feeling that the repositioning of Bootshine and True Strike is not worth it and my parser said the same. It's a difference of 2 DPS in favor of the way more simple rotation that let's you stay at the side of the boss all the time and concentrate more on dodging things.

I just want to say, that it was just a short test, nothing legit over long time and could be just vaild in certain gear or whatever, just thought it was worth mentioning so somebody else could test this aswell.

Unfortunately, simple copping out of the positional requirements is not something I'm opting to do. Since Bootshine an True Strike are inherently more effective from behind I find it a bold as hell argument that not adhering to the positions yields an equatable amount of DPS compared to doing so.

If you played Defilemancer in Rift (or Shaman in Storm Legion) it is very similar, everything about Monk is a priority rotation and it gets even more difficult when you introduce Impulse Drive into the equation in figuring out where to fit it. I don't consider it impossible, I do think it would be made easier if you could instantly identify your debuffs on the mob (make them HUGE, or give us an option to disable displaying all debuffs that are not ours). It is nowhere near impossible just because the rotation is not something static.

You need to fit in your 2 extra DoTs (Touch of Death + Fracture) at a convenient time so that Twin Snakes is going to be up for them and that GL stacks will not drop before you can refresh, Demolish is easy to manage as it fits so well in the rotation. Really the only difficult part I find is being able to instantly tell what the status is of my 3 DoTs + Dragon Kick on the mob.

I did not play Rift at level cap. Impulse doesn't fit anywhere, and it doesn't need to. In fact you're better off not using it. It doesn't activate a stance and by trying to use it you're simply added un-wanted bloat to an already bloated collection of skills. Your benefit from using it is not evidenced in the numbers and time calculations. The same goes for Fracture. The Monk rotation simply doesn't have any room to allow third party skills unless said skill does at least twice the damage of the other skills being used (which it doesn't), or it's instant, and even given the former you're not progressing your stance chain - thus your cycle is halted when you use it, throwing everything off. Monks skill ladder is that of requiring a consistent flow, and pretty much any non-Monk skill is out of the question for that flow.

I'm not saying cross skills are bad for Monk, there are instant cast skills which can be used without inhibiting our timer-heavy setup, but given you're behind/flanking a boss in a raid situation, there is little to no point in using cross skills that require you to "weave" them in, interrupting the already tight nature of the monk buffs/debuffs. Their effect just doesn't stack up to being worth breaking your cycles.

I think its a bit too early to start worrying about rotations and MNK should instead worry about priorities like people are saying in the thread already.

Right now Twin Snakes buff and Dragon Kick debuff are must haves 24/7 and don't require alot of GCD to set up.

It's never too late to start worrying about rotations. Priorities are inherently fused to that of the Monk rotation, they aren't a mutually exclusive couple of conversations.

Your point about Twin Snakes and Dragon Kick is a given, considering they share the same GCD as every single other action with a GCD on your hot bar, so I'm curious why you're implying somewhat that any of the GCDs differ at all?

Shoulder Tackle should be lower cd and refresh GL

Also according to my testing, adding in DoTs = DPS loss. I dropped all dots and did 30 more DPS (Touch of Death, Demolish and Fracture)

You're also asking the impossible to keep going to behind. Some mobs like in Amdapor Keep final boss, they have massive tail attack.

He rarely gives me time to use Bootshine -> True Strike. Most of the time I used Bootshine and have to GTFO

I'm with everyone on Shoulder Tackle. It makes almost no sense, the CD on this ability. There's such a huge array of uses for this move as a Monk yet it doesn't get to live out its potential because its CD is horrid.

On the subject of DOTs, let me clarify a pervasive line of thinking...as far as I can tell the FFXIV APP parser is not properly accumulating DOT damage (at least for Monks yet), so there is no way to properly gauge damage given a Touch of Death/Demolish rotation. Take a look here at this link...

http://ffxiv-app.com/History/

You'll notice as early as July 5th it was pretty much full-stop not a question that DOTs were not being properly measured. In the updates following, he occasionally mentions a fix specific to certain classes, one even mentioning Demolish but absolutely no mention of ToD. It is with this we are able to assume that ToD is not measured because he does not know the formula, and that his Demolish formula is still in need of tweaking (though it seems he might be closer to getting Demolish).

That being said, with ToD's potency, you can be certain that if you're noticing a DPS loss while using this parser in conjunction with applying ToD, you are seeing a completely incorrect adjudication of your damage. Until the parser has been tweaked and fixed in this regard, it cannot be trusted to properly authenticate Monks DPS.

Dragon Kick does not out damage BS. Bootshine is given an automatic critical modifier when used from behind. Being generously forgiving and assuming critical hits are even 1.5x (as opposed to the usual 2x) that of a normal hit, Bootshine is clearly the more superior choice for an opener, and the go-to ability if Dragon Kick need not be refreshed. The critical modifier would have to be 1.2x or probably a bit less for your statement to be true.

[Usotsuki]

Unfortunately, simple copping out of the positional requirements is not something I'm opting to do. Since Bootshine, True Strike, and Snap Punch are all inherently more effective from behind I find it a bold as hell argument that not adhering to the positions yields an equatable amount of DPS compared to doing so.

I hope i didn't misunderstood that but i don't use Bootshine or true strike. I just stand besides the Mob and use Dragon Kick -> Twin Snakes -> Demolish or Snap Punch (keeping demolish up seems worth it). Since doing that, i am way more free to watch boss attacks and easily dodge them (Titan HM as an example) and yet, i don't seem to lose dps. I hope the parsers get better and better to see, if the parser lies to me or if it's just not worth it, using the 2 attacks from behind at all.

[MelianDoriath]

Hope that Snap Punch bit was a typo :P

Anyways, my general rotation has been:

D. Kick > T. Snakes > S. Punch > P. Balance > S. Punch > Demo > T.Snakes > S. Punch until P. Balance wears off > Touch > DK > TS > SP

When Demolish has worn off I put it back up using the DK > TS > Demo combo.

The only time I ever use Bootshine and True Strike is when I can squeeze it in without losing DK debuff. That gives me 3 combos I basically use:

1) D. Kick > T. Snakes > S. Punch
2) D. Kick > T. Snakes > Dem
3) Bootshine > T. Strike > Demo

I rarely, very rarely do Bootshine > T. Strike > S. Punch

I like Bootshine, but a critical DK (which hits like a truck with BFB and IR popped) does far more damage. If my buffs are up, I'd rather gamble on the DK. Bootshine definitely has a place though, especially if you are someone that does not like the gamble on RNG or has a lower crit rate.

[Spythe]

considering they share the same GCD as every single other action with a GCD on your hot bar, so I'm curious why you're implying somewhat that any of the GCDs differ at all?

I guess you mean early? I just think its best to focus on the core moves before people start adding cross skills like fracture and ID(which has his uses in trash). I was saying other GCD cause its kind of pointless to use Fracture or ID before you get a full Lightning stack because that is number 1 over anything else. Too many people are worried about other cross skills before everything is ironed out.

1) D. Kick > T. Snakes > S. Punch
2) D. Kick > T. Snakes > Dem
3) Bootshine > T. Strike > Demo

The thing is if you're around in the back for the Bootshine why not us True Strike if you're not using any cross abilities? There is no reason not to unless its a questionable boss. You get 10 more potency and 5% more crit.

[Nekirr]

But on your first cycle Bootshine won't have the critical damage. Therefore Dragon Kick will win. Also, What does your cycle look like starting with Perfect Balance?

[zipzo]

You are correct in terms of the very first opener, yes, before we have opo stance.

Perfect Balance in order to be pushed to maximum effectiveness (in my opinion) needs to popped as soon as you hit Greased Lightning III + All buffs/debuffs accounted for. You max out its usage that way. Snap Punch seems easily to be the go-to spam skill for the duration of Perfect Balance, as it keeps Greased Lightning maxed so you don't have to worry about and it has the highest potency (assuming you're on the flank).

What has everyone been doing in light of Determination VS Skill Speed Reduction? I've noticed most of our gear comes down to a decision between these two stats, so I'm curious what everyone has been rolling with. Given the Monks "consistent" nature of damage I have assumed that Determination trumps Skill Speed but have no redeeming evidence of this.

Skill Speed is such a difficult stat to measure its worth because it requires lots of dummy smacking for several minutes using either stat to gauge a window of difference.

I hope i didn't misunderstood that but i don't use Bootshine or true strike. I just stand besides the Mob and use Dragon Kick -> Twin Snakes -> Demolish or Snap Punch (keeping demolish up seems worth it). Since doing that, i am way more free to watch boss attacks and easily dodge them (Titan HM as an example) and yet, i don't seem to lose dps. I hope the parsers get better and better to see, if the parser lies to me or if it's just not worth it, using the 2 attacks from behind at all.

I actually made a flub mentioning Snap Punch also, correcting myself. Snap Punch is more effective on the flank. That was my bad.

[Cynric]

The reason you open with Dragon Kick instead of bootshine is because automatic crit only happens after going through to Oppo stance after a coreul stance move. Thus you can not open with it because it's a weaker opening potency than dragon kick.