[Suggestions] Ideas for a more lively and strategic combat system.

[Nakiamiie]

Hello everyone,
first, I'd like to apologize for players who would like painless combats and can sleep or go away during fights. This thread is about changing that and making combat more lively and strategic, less repetitive. Also, it's a wall of text, sorry. However, each dot represent an idea, more or less independent of the others, so it can be read in more than one sitting.

As we all know, the developers are preparing a new combat system. However, it is time to put forth our suggestions to make sure they don't fail another time. Mainly, copying another MMORPG's battle system (right now it's almost an exact copy of FFXI's, armoury system aside -- same aggro system, same flat 2d combats [no real flying monster, for example], same lack of monster's personality in combat, etc... same same same).

So, here is a list of suggestions that would make combat more interesting, fun, lively, less repetitive and more strategic. They are NOT ordered by importance or anything, they are simply randomly ordered as I thought of them. Also, I suggest other players to put their own list of combat changes here as well, even if it means repeating already written suggestions. The more voices, the better. And, it is simpler to read 1 thread than going through all the forum to post dozens of suggestions around the same topic in different threads: improving the combat system.

• Improve the effect of position during combat. Make clear and easily noticeable changes (bonus/penalty) when fighting a monster from the side, front or back.

• Improve the effect of range for attacks. Make clear and easily noticeable changes (bonus/penalty) when fighting a monster too close, too far, or at the optimal range for your weapon. Also, allow a visual display of the range of AoE magics and other actions.

• Optimal ranges for weapons could be different for each races, both player's races and monsters (a Elezen lancer should stand farther than a Lalafell lancer, for example). It would prevent players from cluttering together during combat and change the whole dynamic of battle. A Lalafell lancer fighting a pugilist Elezen could both be at optimal range, for example. A Roegadyn marauder could have an optimal range far enough to make smaller monsters' attack less effective, for example. Etc.

• Monsters and players must have different attacks (either using another limb or performing it differently, with a bonus/penalty to the attack) for each position they attack from. A good example of that is a Goobbue that passes its arms under him to reach behind to attack. Another example would be a Aldgoat that kick with their back legs for attacking behind (instead of turning around all the time, and it could be more powerful than their frontal attack, for example). A Gladiator could pass his blade under its arm (shield) to attack behind or on the left side (which would have less accuracy and power). This could happen when an attack in queue in executed while the monster moved to the side or if the player changed target while the attack is ready and the character has not yet turned around. It would make combat faster and more fluid.

• Monster should have more than one basic attack. Instead of spamming the same attack all the time and doing special attacks from time to time, the monsters should could change stance and attack differently. For example, a drake could attack with it's claw, then turn around because it decided to continue the fight with it's tail. This would force a change in the combat dynamic, for example, if the drake attacking with it's tail had greater defence from the back or its attacks were more powerful with its tail.

• Each class should have different stances for fighting or casting magic: one that is more defensive, one that is more evasive, one that is balanced, one that more powerful, one that is more accurate, etc. Each stance would change give bonuses and penalties to certain aspect of the attacks, it should even change the fighting animation. This also applies to casting magic (faster spell cast, more accurate, less interruption, etc).

• True flying monsters. Currently, all "flying" monsters are simply hovering the ground, just like FFXI (now, that's really retro). Having true flying monsters would force new strategies during combat since the flying monsters could go out of range... vertically! It would promoted use of throwing weapons for melee class, jump attacks, and allow for completely new set of strategies to deal with these flying monsters, making combat truly different. As a side note, yes, I do understand that some monster DO hover and not fly, like the medusa-things (anemone, aurelia, cassiopeia, etc). This suggestion is for birds, flies and other flying monsters.

• True immobile monsters (we may have this already). For example, plant monsters. They can attack with underground roots, by shooting projectiles, spitting poison, etc but could never move nor flee. Obviously, they would have a really big range for some of their attacks, to prevent exploits. Some of these true immobile monsters could "catching" attacks that forces players to come closer! Fleeing being somewhat more difficult to perform, just like it can sometimes be difficult to escape pursuing monsters.

• A wider variety of monster behaviours. Currently, we have 100% aggressive and 100% passive monster, nothing in between. We should have monsters with varied aggressive/passive behaviours that change when certain conditions are met. For example, monsters aggressive only at night, monsters only aggressive if you fight another monster in front of them (seeing/smelling blood makes them mad), monsters aggressive only if your clothes are certain colours (red for example), monsters that become passive if you carry food, monsters that become passive in presence of certain classes (a rogue marauder becomes passive for other marauders, for example), a monster become passive or aggressive depending on your elemental affinity (a fire elemental would be passive if you have allotted a lot of points to fire in your physical level -- or vice versa for opposing elements), a monster become passive or aggressive depending on your deity (a group of rogue thaumarturges believing in Ralghr become passive if your deity is Ralghr too; or a group of rogue thaumaturges systematically attack followers of Ralghr, for example), etc. Be creative! Or some monsters can have a random aggressive/passive pattern (sometimes they are, sometimes they are not). Consequently, the aggressive-passive icons would need to be extended (the colours and description are only suggestions):

1. green: 100% passive, they never attack players unprovoked.
2. yellow: passive, but will attack players if a certain condition is met.
3. red: 100% aggressive, will attack players under any circumstances.
4. blue: passive, but becomes aggressive at night.
5. purple: aggressive, but will become passive if a certain condition is met.
6. black: random! the monster will attacks you if you are not lucky.

• A wider variety of detection methods for aggressive monster. Right now, the aggressive monsters have the same methods of detection as FFXI: sight and sound, maybe magic and low HP. The new methods of detection, including the actual ones, could be as follow:

1. sight: a cone in front of the monster that detects characters in it. The cone is reduced at night or in dark areas, like caves.
2. sound: a circle around the monster that only detects characters that are running, performing a synthesis, performing an emote, activating a skill/action/magic, chatting in "say" or "shout" mode. Standing still in passive or active mode would prevent detection, chatting in "tell/linkshell/party" mode would not allow detection, walking would have a reduced detection rate.
3. scent: a circle around the monster that automatically detects any characters in it. The detection circle is reduced or absent during certain weather condition, like high wind, sandstorms, etc.
4. blood: a circle or cone around the monster that only detects characters not full in HP (or below 90% HP).
5. magic: a circle or cone around the monster that only detects characters casting a spells, performing a magical action and/or if they have magical effects on them (both buffs and debuffs, as long as they are magical in nature. For example: protect, shell, etc).
6. touch: the monster detects characters only if they bump on it.

[Nakiamiie]

• Bring back monsters' personality traits and more complex ones. Having curious monsters, monsters that flee when approaching too close, monsters that tries to hide in grass, monsters that tries to stay close to others of it's kind (without being in a party with them), monsters that tries to stay close of more powerful monsters, monsters that wants to be alone, etc. These monster's personalities will change the dynamic of looking for a prey to fight, having to trick them and use new strategies to ambush them. It also means, monsters should be allowed enough intelligence to try to ambush players. For example, if a monsters is trying to ambush a character, the monster's name should fade for that player only and the monsters tries to hide in bushes or crawl low on the ground behind the ambushed character. Or, prey monsters that simply hide. When the prey monster is hiding (in an alternate form [like the mushroom monster], by purposely hiding in a bush or in the ground, etc), players can't see the creature's name and have to look for it. Obviously, they would not be hiding all the time, some of them rarely, others frequently.

• In the same idea of the previous suggestion, bring monster morale. A very weak monster would flee a highly ranked character when provoked in combat, a solo monster would try to flee when it is low on HP but the players are not, etc. That would make stunning/immobilization skills much more useful. And, to prevent endless chase across the land, each fleeing caused by a loss of morale would have limitations. For example, the monster can only flee for X seconds then becomes tired (and cannot flee again for another Y seconds) and a fleeing monster cannot flee in the direction of players (so, you can effectively trap a monster in a dead end, preventing it from ever fleeing OR by surrounding it with a full party), etc. When fleeing, the monster would try to seek refuge with others of its kind or simply run away randomly if no help is nearby. A fleeing monster could go out of it's territory, but if disengaged would stay very low on HP until he gets back into its territory and could be claimed again (and killed) during his trip back. As a side note, before anyone freaks out, fleeing could be a happen rarely depending on the situation (a rank 50 trying to kill a rank 1 monster would most certainly result in fleeing [if its not killed in 1-hit or one monsters in the same party flee for each killed in that case], but a normal fight, rarely).

• Improvement on the battle effects. Not simply bigger and shinier flash of light, but effects more tangible. For example, in another MMORPG we all know, when someone casts a root immobilizing spell on you, roots come out of the ground and trap your feet the whole duration of the spell. The whole duration of the spell. It's not just a shiny burst of light among all the other shiny burst of light (thus making a mess of light), it's a tangible, long-lasting, effect. That's what we need. It will improve combat by making things less messy (opposed to bursts of shining lights that look all the same) and give a long-lasting visual cue of what is going on. Of course looking at the small icons on the top of the screen is fun, I have no clue what half of them do however and I don't have to check them up during combat. Having your feet trapped in roots is a good visual cue, seeing your friend on fire is a good clue that might be the reason he is losing HP faster, etc. Of course, we have some tentative effects like that in the game, but they are not sufficient to give a good visual cue. For example, when sleeping, our character close their eyes and their posture changes slightly. The problem is: slightly. The character is sleeping and still in fighting stance, standing well on its two feet... with a slight change in posture, because he is sleeping after all. Really? Shouldn't our character fall on its knee, its head hanging low, arms resting on the side? Now THAT is a good visual cue: hey, I'm sleeping. And when he wakes up, he jumps back on its feet, back in fighting stance. Total time of the animation: one second for falling on its knees and one second to jump back up. It keeps the combat fast paced, smooth and is a great visual effect that helps timing strategies in combat. That's what is needed in term of battle effects, not just big flash of lights.

The concept behind these ideas is not to make combat a pain, but adding an element of strategy to make players use their brain during combat. And each of the ideas presented here can be implemented in such way: to bring strategy and make combat dynamics, while staying simple (with a few exceptions to spice things up for certain monsters). It is to prevent repetition and players becoming bored after the 10th fight, to prevent players from falling asleep on their keyboard. Of course, we will always have players who'd like monsters to form a line in front of them, not move and only spam the same basic move during the whole fight. And it would still be possible, to just stand in front of the monster and do simple attacks until it is dead, but would be less effective. Right now, most combats are much more effective if everyone goes all out (1 tank, 1 healer and everyone else just slash the beast, without any further thoughts), while putting forth strategies with the few we have is more a waste of time since it is not significantly more effective in the end.

Like I said, if you have your own list of ideas you'd like to share, put it in here!

Also, if you don't like any of the suggestion proposed here, do not simply say you dislike it, instead, propose a better version of it that would be ok with you. It will prevent pointless wars in this thread and trolling.

[Sykora727]

Some pretty good ideas. I like the idea of making it so that attacking monsters from various angles has a more-realized effect.

Also, please keep my Marauder from missing 5 times per short battle. My dex is over 100 and I still miss quite often. And no missing on creatures that are standing still like crabs in their shells, sleeping sheep etc. It's pathetic when I miss, or the creature "evades" my attack when they're not even moving!

[Nakiamiie]

Also, please keep my Marauder from missing 5 times per short battle. My dex is over 100 and I still miss quite often. And no missing on creatures that are standing still like crabs in their shells, sleeping sheep etc. It's pathetic when I miss, or the creature "evades" my attack when they're not even moving!

Yup, another good point that needs to worked on, haha!

[Carpe]

Nice post. I hope they also makes weapon/skill features like piercing, slashing, etc. and elemental resistances more meaningful in combat.

One idea I had was for them to introduce Elite/Hard monsters that would require a small party to kill and would give experience chains, these could be found in instanced areas, deep within dungeons, or secluded areas on the world map.

[RemnantWolf]

We seem to have a few of the same ideas, I also suggested that there be some sort of bonus/penalty for tactical positioning, as well as stances that allow you to change fighting style to fit the situation.

I have a few more ideas that would add some dynamics to the battles.

Throw attacks, basically just some special attacks that have a strong knockback effect, but only on enemies you are strong enough to throw. It would add some great ways to get the enemy where you want them for positioning, plus it is a great way to add something more than slashing and poking to the moveset.

Multi layered monsters, I love when a game has me knocking over a giant monster by attacking it's feet before I can get to it's head. Things like that add some new ways to adjust monster behavior and add to how players must stratagise, maybe you can't attack a monster until you knock something onto it to break it's hard shell or something like that.

Environmental attacks. Using old pillars and knocking a monster off a steep hill add to the ways you look at your surroundings. Suddenly that patch of dried grass becomes a possible fire trap and boulders become your new weapons from above.

Grappling hooks, great for pulling flying enemies out of the air, moving an enemy into a good tactical position, or just keeping that huge boss from pancaking your healer grappling hooks could have a great tactal purpose that is most effective if you have strong people using them.

[Nakiamiie]

Carpe, how would these elite monsters be different from NMs? Sorry, i didn't understood, can you explain more in details? It sounds like a nice idea.

We seem to have a few of the same ideas, I also suggested that there be some sort of bonus/penalty for tactical positioning, as well as stances that allow you to change fighting style to fit the situation.

I have a few more ideas that would add some dynamics to the battles.

Throw attacks, basically just some special attacks that have a strong knockback effect, but only on enemies you are strong enough to throw. It would add some great ways to get the enemy where you want them for positioning, plus it is a great way to add something more than slashing and poking to the moveset.

Multi layered monsters, I love when a game has me knocking over a giant monster by attacking it's feet before I can get to it's head. Things like that add some new ways to adjust monster behavior and add to how players must stratagise, maybe you can't attack a monster until you knock something onto it to break it's hard shell or something like that.

Environmental attacks. Using old pillars and knocking a monster off a steep hill add to the ways you look at your surroundings. Suddenly that patch of dried grass becomes a possible fire trap and boulders become your new weapons from above.

Grappling hooks, great for pulling flying enemies out of the air, moving an enemy into a good tactical position, or just keeping that huge boss from pancaking your healer grappling hooks could have a great tactal purpose that is most effective if you have strong people using them.

Amazing!!! Count me in for these ideas as well.

[Anty]

Very nice post here!
i like the monster behaviour under certain circumstances very much (some were even in ffxi at least day and nighttime if i remember right).
I would also like to see less of this mindless hack and slay which made me leave all current mmos since its so boring.
Especially if you are on a healing roll, all you do is spam cures, spam spam spam, i think its the worst implementation of any healer job i've played the last 10 years. Theres just 1/2 spells you have to use, of course you CAN use other spells in between to spice things up (which i do usually) but its not needed at all, which makes it pointless. In ffxi you had to use poisona, paralyna, stona and such to prevent death/wipes even in normal xp parties, now you just spam cure. Even if some ppl are paralyzed its not a big deal... playing a mage makes you feel really unimportant and stupid. I have less to do then a fishing bot... geez.

Still the "easy" way provides the most sp/xp and basicly you can fight mobs way higher then your group until a mob can one-shot you, which is pathetic imo. 2 healers in the party and you never lose hp at all with cure spam... thats almost like an exploit and makes playing a mage the most boring part i can imagine.

Other jobs are also just hack and slay but you can use more different abilities, still not far from being good though.

And the Battleregimen (even if a lot of ppl seem to defend them for whatever reasons) isnt a good idea after all since its
the same as weaponskills. The only thing, no timing is needed and due to the current BR mechanic theres barely or no animation at all since everything has to go off in a sec after the trigger. Why not just have a certain effect be triggered when ppl perform the skills, like it was in ffxi. this way ppl see the animation, have to time magic bursts, and can enjoy the animations. BR is a big step backward from skillchains, i dunno why that is to be defended since its the same just lacking in almost everythign that was enjoable in weaponskillchains/bursts.

In ffxi sometimes you really had things goin wrong when a WS missed a skillchain didnt work due to timing.
In ffxiv you just spam the BR still they work, just spam spam spam, and spamming without even a nice animation... wow that is some bad system. I like the fact that certain combos make a mob weak to whatever or similar things but theres no need for this stupid BR system. Since you have to coordinate it, and who uses what.... why not just coordinate it, use it, enjoy the animation, trigger the effect... and get a nice eyecandy "finish" animation?
Its basicly the BR without the stupid trigger button (which makes the fighitng feel far less "fast" more like turn based) polished in many ways.

I really hope they manage make the battle system and the class system enjoyable and more fun. The current system isnt even a joke anymore. Its a slap in the ff fans faces.

[Augury]

Well... I think the removal of cooldowns would greatly benefit this game. While many sight the Stamina bar as the problem in this formula, I find it to be the solution due to my experiences in Ragnarok Online. In RO, skills have "Pre-cast Delays" and "After-cast Delays" (effectively casting times and cooldowns), as well as "Skill Usage Delays" (which puts the whole action bar on a very short cooldown in addition to whatever clocks are shortening for cooldowns). To me, the cast of a skill or spell should end after it's usage, otherwise the skill-sets and game tempo will favor the "spike" attacks, while the stamina system allows you to use larger attacks in tempo with spikes for much more immersing play. Naturally, the stamina bar could see some adjustments, but the direction it presents is definitely much more appealing than cooldowns becoming the balancing factor, which allows for too much abusability (IE the proactive solution is much better than the reactive solution in this case)

I like the idea of stancing, which can be VERY flavorful in the "front row/backrow" troupe of Final Fantasy games . Should the job system be an expansion of the Disciples of War/Magic/Land that gives forked options, I would like to see martial jobs that have skills which are only usable while switching stances to disrupt their opponent's tempo (specifically a "Thief" job) or jobs which get buffs from stance shuffling (specifically a "Monk" job)

[Nakiamiie]

Well... I think the removal of cooldowns would greatly benefit this game. While many sight the Stamina bar as the problem in this formula, I find it to be the solution due to my experiences in Ragnarok Online. In RO, skills have "Pre-cast Delays" and "After-cast Delays" (effectively casting times and cooldowns), as well as "Skill Usage Delays" (which puts the whole action bar on a very short cooldown in addition to whatever clocks are shortening for cooldowns). To me, the cast of a skill or spell should end after it's usage, otherwise the skill-sets and game tempo will favor the "spike" attacks, while the stamina system allows you to use larger attacks in tempo with spikes for much more immersing play. Naturally, the stamina bar could see some adjustments, but the direction it presents is definitely much more appealing than cooldowns becoming the balancing factor, which allows for too much abusability (IE the proactive solution is much better than the reactive solution in this case)

I like the idea of stancing, which can be VERY flavorful in the "front row/backrow" troupe of Final Fantasy games . Should the job system be an expansion of the Disciples of War/Magic/Land that gives forked options, I would like to see martial jobs that have skills which are only usable while switching stances to disrupt their opponent's tempo (specifically a "Thief" job) or jobs which get buffs from stance shuffling (specifically a "Monk" job)

Just to make it clear for everyone, what are "spike" attacks?