We need an AH

[Chezen]

I don't think you quite understand what I mean by objectively better. Your points basically consist of "Other MMOs have bad market systems" and "some people like MW". Those are not things that make a system good.

NPC based wards have introduced the following problems:

Ward limits on retainers
Difficulty selling different kinds of items
Forced zoning when buying different kinds of items
Loss of access to 90 storage slots due to retainers being placed in a ward
Having to manage multiple retainers

These are all legitimate, measurable problems with an NPC model that would simply vanish the moment NPCs were taken out of the equation.

But there is no functionality that the NPC model has brought that can't be replicated in a system without NPCs. That's why it's objectively worse.

"Whoever said the human race was logical."

Reducing rpg games to nothing more than efficiency, calculations, and numbers is to me what takes the fun out of the game. MW allow for a type of RP. Maybe they need some help, but they are still more interesting than an AH.

I also don't see the things you listed as problems. Crashing is a problem. Having separate wards so that 80% of the population camps in Uldah is a problem. The things you listed are gameplay.

Anyway, that's the extent of my comments on this. It's not worth a debate to me.

Edit: "Any likeness in thought between Star Trek references is purely coincidental"

[Wolfie]

"Whoever said the human race was logical."

Reducing rpg games to nothing more than efficiency, calculations, and numbers is to me what takes the fun out of the game. MW allow for a type of roleplay. Maybe they need some help, but they are still more interesting than an AH.

I also don't see the things you listed as problems. Crashing is a problem. Having separate wards so that 80% of the population camps in Uldah is a problem. The things you listed are gameplay.

Anyway, that's the extent of my comments on this. It's not worth a debate to me.

Edit: "Any likeness in thought between Star Trek references is purely coincidental"

Your entire argument boils down to "I think it's fun" and "I don't think X is a problem". There is not a single thing that NPC's do that's unique, and a pretty hefty list of problems (the crashing is caused in part by the fact that they're NPCs and are in multiple, separate zones).

We're talking about literal loss of functionality, hindrance in gameplay, and a system that is objectively more difficult to use and develop. You really think that it's still superior to a system that's not based on "NPCs selling your items in separate zones"?

[Kaedan]

We're talking about literal loss of functionality, hindrance in gameplay, and a system that is objectively more difficult to use and develop. You really think that it's still superior to a system that's not based on "NPCs selling your items in separate zones"?

Before you even begin to try and make the statement that an AH is "objectively better", you have to define the parameters of the AH you are talking about... which you have failed to do.

Second, even if one or two aspects of an AH are objectively better, that doesn't mean the AH as a whole is objectively better.

Finally, you cannot prove that an aspect of the AH is objectively better. People like different things. Some people may like running to an NPC to pick up their item. That makes the point subjective. You are trying to make the claim that getting an item instantly or getting an item from your mailbox is "better for everyone" (a restatement of 'objectively better')... which is impossible to prove.

[Wolfie]

Before you even begin to try and make the statement that an AH is "objectively better", you have to define the parameters of the AH you are talking about... which you have failed to do.

Second, even if one or two aspects of an AH are objectively better, that doesn't mean the AH as a whole is objectively better.

Finally, you cannot prove that an aspect of the AH is objectively better. People like different things. Some people may like running to an NPC to pick up their item. That makes the point subjective. You are trying to make the claim that getting an item instantly or getting an item from your mailbox is "better for everyone" (a restatement of 'objectively better')... which is impossible to prove.

My claim was that the current system, with NPCs, can be replicated without the NPCs and void of all the problems that NPCs bring.

Edit: and I should clarify, by NPCs, I mean retainers. If purchases are done from a single, non-retainer NPC, that's a better system.

[Kaedan]

My claim was that the current system, with NPCs, can be replicated without the NPCs and void of all the problems that NPCs bring.

Edit: and I should clarify, by NPCs, I mean retainers. If purchases are done from a single, non-retainer NPC, that's a better system.

You are still failing to provide the specific parameters of the system you claim to be "objectively better".

I can tell you right now that there are benefits to having the current system over a "one NPC" system... so that alone proves it's not objectively better.

[Wolfie]

You are still failing to provide the specific parameters of the system you claim to be "objectively better".

I can tell you right now that there are benefits to having the current system over a "one NPC" system... so that alone proves it's not objectively better.

The parameters of the system I'm claiming is better is one that's identical to this one, except purchases and sales are done through a single NPC, in a single zone.

Would you like to list some of the benefits of this system that a one NPC model doesn't have and couldn't be replicated with it?

[Kaedan]

The parameters of the system I'm claiming is better is one that's identical to this one, except purchases and sales are done through a single NPC, in a single zone.

Would you like to list some of the benefits of this system that a one NPC model doesn't have and couldn't be replicated with it?

Sure, just a few:

-The current system allows the opportunity to sell additional items to the buyer. Example: Buyer is looking for a Potion. He searches and finds cheapest retainer. Visiting that retainer, he also sees that retainer is selling a weapon that would be beneficial to him. So now, instead of just buying one item, he buys two.

-The current system adds an aspect for roleplay.

-The current system discourages exploitation and manipulation of the market.

I'm not going to pretend that I'm going to convince you to change your mind... it's quite obvious your opinion differs. BUT, the point is that you cannot make the claim that your idea is objectively better, because that would require that it would be better in all ways for everyone... and that just isn't the case. It's a subjective topic.

[Chezen]

Your entire argument boils down to "I think it's fun" and "I don't think X is a problem". There is not a single thing that NPC's do that's unique, and a pretty hefty list of problems (the crashing is caused in part by the fact that they're NPCs and are in multiple, separate zones).

We're talking about literal loss of functionality, hindrance in gameplay, and a system that is objectively more difficult to use and develop. You really think that it's still superior to a system that's not based on "NPCs selling your items in separate zones"?

Ok. One last comment. The only thing I am stating (not arguing) that market wards are superior in, is enjoyment. That is subjective, not objective.