Need help with MNK class

[enil]

I'm not sure if you're listening to what I'm saying.
You hand wave all the points I bring up and keep saying that a non-impulse rotation is easier and less complicated, I bring up points to show you that impulse drive is simpler and at much less threat of dropping buffs but you just ignore it.

Let's assume a 1.99 GCD which is pretty much ideal for using True/Boot.
Your regular 12 second rotation.
DK/Twin/Coeurl/Boot/True/Coeurl
The same rotation for ID is
DK/Twin/Coeurl/ID/ID/ID

So we're really comparing IDx3 vs Boot/True/Snap
This turns out to be 540 Potency vs 522.5 at 0% crit and continually scales up.

If you start adding in Fracture and HoD, a rotation of for non-ID turns into
DK/Twin/Coeurl/filler/DK/Twin/Coeurl
or you risk losing buffs.

For ID, you can DK/Twin/Coeurl/ID/ID/Filler.

Not only is it simpler for my method, you lose less uptime on your damage filler skills.

[Almalexia]

Let's assume a 1.99 GCD which is pretty much ideal for using True/Boot.
Your regular 12 second rotation.
DK/Twin/Coeurl/Boot/True/Coeurl
The same rotation for ID is
DK/Twin/Coeurl/ID/ID/ID

So we're really comparing IDx3 vs Boot/True/Snap
This turns out to be 540 Potency vs 522.5 at 0% crit and continually scales up.

If you start adding in Fracture and HoD, a rotation of for non-ID turns into
DK/Twin/Coeurl/filler/DK/Twin/Coeurl
or you risk losing buffs.

If someone could actually--not theoretically--pull off 6 skills on GCD before GL expires, you may be on to something.

But it doesn't make sense to only use DK and Twin in a non-ID rotation. You have plenty of time to spend one rotation on DK/Twin and a second rotation on Boot/True. Sprinkle Fracture and ToD as appropriate; you don't have to apply them on the same rotation.

Take that 1.99 example again: In 12 seconds, you'll be able to make 2 complete rotations, so you'll be back on Twin Snakes where you started. Twin's buff lasts 12s. Dragon Kick lasts 15--no problems there.

And I don't understand how using non-MNK rotation skills makes it easier to keep buffs up. You don't get any form change for using ID and you certainly don't get any +% bonus.

[Almalexia]

Well, you got me interested enough in ID to test it with a parser. I went toe-to-straw with some training dummies and here's what I found:

Conditions -
1) No DoTs; the parser does not read them accurately (no crits, Fracture is 30s cross-class, author-made algorithm)
2) No off-GCD skills or buffs except Invigorate
3) Always locked on; no cutting from back to flank
4) Open with Dragon Kick from the flank as the timer starts
5) GL3 buildup counts
6) 3 minutes, no survivors

ID+MNK rotation
DK > Twin > Snap (x3 to start for GL) > ID > ID > ID > repeat

At 2.05 GCD, I was able to maintain GL3 within a hairs breadth of it wearing off. This approach certainly is easier: 3 hits from the flank, 3 from the rear and repeat. There is no room for error here though - if you don't mash those keys, you will lose GL.

What ended up getting me around the 1:40 mark was TP--I ran out. After I used Invigorate, I ran out of TP again somewhere around 2:20. GL was lost and I had to rebuild GL from scratch. This impacted DPS, but as you will see, it wasn't as big a gap as it could have been:

MNK rotation only
DK > Twin > Snap > Boot > True > Snap > repeat, or alternate DK and Twin as desired

I will admit I goofed on this and misused DK/Twin once or twice. There is a ~2000 point difference between an ID rotation and strict MNK rotation; disregarding the discrepancy in auto-attacks, the difference is only about 1600.

I also ran out of TP on this rotation as well, around 2:00, but Invigorate saw me through to the end of 3 minutes. GL went uninterrupted.

I would love to compare these again when we can accurately measure DoTs, but the off-GCD abilities alone would be a fraction of a second I wouldn't risk on a tight, 6-step ID rotation. Nevertheless:

ID pros:
Simple rotation: easy to manage all buffs
Simple attack pattern: 3 from the flank, 3 from the rear

ID cons:
Unforgiving rotation: getting back to GL at 2s GCD is a close call every time
Stresses TP: not even Invigorate can get you far past 2:20 of solid punching
Specific positioning: missing a rear attack of ID will set you back in potency without advancing MNK forms

MNK pros:
Always advancing: sticking to MNK skills will always move forms forward, so it is safer to manage GL
Positional variety: MNK can use a different skill on demand to maximize DPS if the mob position suddenly changes

MNK cons:
Inconsistent rotation: you will have to bounce between different skills constantly
On-the-run: You will have to constantly move from flank to side in the middle of a rotation in order to maximize DPS

[enil]

Nicely done.
I feel like this sets a fairly nice baseline for additional discussion, I hope this shows you that ID is a very viable alternative.

TP seems like an issue for the ID rotation (MNK rotation has 6 extra GCDs), but there aren't many fights that will let you sit and DPS for over 2 minutes with no interruption. We should do additional 30 second/1 minute snapshots to compare. Also would Bard's Army's Paeon solve the TP issues and would it be worth the 20% dps hit for them.

You have higher crit rates overall for the ID rotation 12.1% vs 8.6% for MNK rotation (not including Bootshine) - regular rotation should pull out a bit further if crit rates were more normalised.

Is it possible to reach 1.7GCD with current gear? This means you can get 7 GCDS in 12 seconds allowing you to do a 4xID rotation. If you can't reach 2.0 GCD is it worth only doing a 2xID rotation? Better gear would give you alot more leeway on keeping GL up.

[Almalexia]

I could try again with Paeon to see how long I last. But, yeah, you probably won't have the luxury to go full-force for 2 straight minutes in endgame. w

I don't know the precise cutoff for a 6-fold rotation. With 2.05 GCD, the GL icon was vanishing during Snap Punch's animation every time only to refresh GL3 after. If you were 2.1GCD or higher I imagine you wouldn't have that grace period anymore.

To be clear: 2.05GCD is full DL (accessories included) and NQ Sphairai plus GL3. With food, HQ Sphairai, and Allagan/AF2 a MNK could reach 1.7 GCD. And if not, then certainly with SCH haste.

[Gasroil]

I could try again with Paeon to see how long I last. But, yeah, you probably won't have the luxury to go full-force for 2 straight minutes in endgame. w

I don't know the precise cutoff for a 6-fold rotation. With 2.05 GCD, the GL icon was vanishing during Snap Punch's animation every time only to refresh GL3 after. If you were 2.1GCD or higher I imagine you wouldn't have that grace period anymore.

To be clear: 2.05GCD is full DL (accessories included) and NQ Sphairai plus GL3. With food, HQ Sphairai, and Allagan/AF2 a MNK could reach 1.7 GCD. And if not, then certainly with SCH haste.

I have 2.08 GCD in my gear at the moment and I can barely do the 6 GCD rotation off reliably it, when i complete the snap/demo GL3 disappears but is reapplied after a short period I highly doubt you could get away with much more if any at all.

[KaosPrimeZero]

Can't really give you advice on rotation, you should of worked this out by the time your 50 really, I feel it shouldn't be something you analyze and pour over, should just know what to do by instinct ^^,

edit: just make sure your filling every GCD with at least something, and try to keep your GL on all time, dont sweat it when you lose it tho, happens often on primal hard modes!!!

That is all true however MNK from 1.0 to 2.0 has changed in move set. It feels different to me. So for 2.0 i didn't have the natural progression of leveling and learning the move set's. I was tossed in at 50 with everything unlocked. So for me trying to find out what is a useful ability and not from more experienced players and to get ideas of rotations is extremely helpful. i agree over the course of leveling its something you should have grasped but as Legacy players we are not privy to such conditions

Finally what is GCD?

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Rotation 1: Flank position: Touch of death>>Dragon Kick>> Twin Snakes>> Demolish
Rotation 2: Flank position: Dragon Kick>>> Twin Snakes>>> Snap Punch
Rotation 3: Rear position: Bootshine>>>True Strike>> Demolish>> Touch of deah

That's how i usually roll. Works well for me.

[kysulli]

Interesting analysis of ID vs mnk rotation. I didn't think that ID would compensate for less use of Snap Punch+True Strike, but it seems to. It also fits mercy stroke a little easier; can probably make an ID/mercy stroke macro.

However, I don't see this being very useful for fights where you have to disengage a lot. You will lose GL every time if you can't target switch or get back immediately.

Edit: Losing GL can probably be fixed with a little flexibility between mnk rotation and ID rotation when needed. Not that mnk rotation is any better at keeping up GL stacks when losing target.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Greased lightning sucks -.-