Learning to be Patient with SE Dev Communication.

[Valarian]

I pretty much only come here to view the posts from the Dev Tracker, but it seems that whenever I do I always see some sort of argument brought forth about the information being insufficient by someone, followed by a rebuttal that amounts to an opinion that the above mentioned someone is an ungrateful poo poo head. By explaining what I think goes on at SE, I thought maybe I could convince one or two people that they're doing what they can.

Almost certainly, rule at the office is one of committee. Yoshi-P may be roughly in charge, but he's not the only voice that matters. Good leadership, I think, requires a lot more listening than it does talking. After all, you're putting together a lot of people with not only different opinions, but with vastly different skills and abilities, and trying to guide them as a unit toward a common goal. For an example of how difficult that can be, you only have to check the discussions on this very board. Very few are ever resolved with consensus. Even so, consensus must be reached at SE before development can even begin. When a Dev posts to say "We're discussing it", they mean it. You don't get to see how much effort is put into these discussions, but you can be assured that "We're discussing it." is a serious understatement of that effort.

The second thing I see people complain about is the lack of timelines or solid dates. Ideally, we'd have those, but situations are very rarely ideal. They say "Haste makes waste". Having a fixed date for things is eventually going to put pressure on people to rush produce something. Isn't that what it feels like got us into this situation in the first place? I think it feels like the game was rushed out the door to satisfy an arbitrary date, at least, and it's not a mistake I'd like to see repeated. Instead of being negative, though, I like to look at the current situation as a big opportunity for the creative types among us to influence the game while developers take the time to implement those influences properly.

Lastly, I find the Dev tracker to be enormously informative. I can get some little bit of information about what's going on at the head quarters almost every day. Even if it's just what is being discussed or what topics are being thought about, I feel more a part of Square's development team than I ever have. I also feel an honest good-faith effort to make right what went wrong. I genuinely feel a fondness for this development team and Yoshi-P. I have faith in them, and I don't think that faith will go unrewarded.

[Betelgeuzah]

Bottom line is: You don't want to hear about concepts. Concepts never manifest 1:1 in reality, so it is pointless to talk about them unless you want to be disappointed and think "how X could have been if only......". Realizing the concepts takes time, and only near the finish line can they seriously sit down and talk to us about the features.

It's even more problematic with the rehauls as they come in two parts. Even when the first part is done it's still kind of iffy and may not end up working like they thought. Determining what can be and has been already realized and what is still a dream in Matsui's head is not simple. Specific features such as death penalties are easier to plan, but they do not have such luxury with the majority of the combat rehaul. Everything is being changed simultaneously, and it is a fluid process. You change X, you affect Y Z and C. If D doesn't make it, F has to be left out as well.

[Xeno]

The main problem that most of the players are having is
A. They want a rough timeline
B. They want more specific info
the reasons we are behaving like this is because ever since launch they have constantly said, "It'll be good soon guys, please be patient," well we, the fanbase, have a hard time being patient over 7 months! To explain the second part, all the info that SE ever gives us is, "Hey were doing this" "Hey look forward to this" "You'll get information about it soon!" but the thing is we still don't know how companies work, we don't know how the new job system will work, we don't know anything except that what me may or may not want is coming...eventually...

[Betelgeuzah]

the thing is we still don't know how companies work, we don't know how the new job system will work, we don't know anything except that what me may or may not want is coming...eventually...

The problem is that neither do devs. They have their concepts. They have their plans. They are probably implementing said plans as we speak (okay, come Monday). But as far as how the system will end up, they are as clueless as we are.

We don't want to be told info that may not be accurate. We want a timeline, we want more specific info, and most importantly, we want accurate info. The latter is simply impossible to deliver before much closer to the actual day of implementation.

[Xeno]

The problem is that neither do devs. They have their concepts. They have their plans. They are probably implementing said plans as we speak (okay, come Monday). But as far as how the system will end up, they are as clueless as we are.

We don't want to be told info that may not be accurate. We want a timeline, we want more specific info, and most importantly, we want accurate info. The latter is simply impossible to deliver before much closer to the actual day of implementation.

I personally wouldn't mind being told info like, ".... well we're not sure if it will work that way but we'll see!" Plus, isn't the new battle system coming in 1.18 or 1.19? I'm sure they have a pretty good idea of what they're doing considering the fact that they've been working on it for a few months now and it's only a few weeks away from launch. We know auto-attack is coming but that's about all we know about the new battle system.

[Jamel-Irief]

We don't want to be told info that may not be accurate. We want a timeline, we want more specific info, and most importantly, we want accurate info. The latter is simply impossible to deliver before much closer to the actual day of implementation.

Everything in this topic makes sense and good logic, but how come in other MMO's these things doesn't seem to be a problem. I.e. Aion patch notes are giving months before being patched in game, sometimes they don't hold the timelime but everything in patch notes is exactly as it becomes in the game.

Tanaka's old roadmap didn't have any real definite timeline (other then "2011"), and for me that roadmap was a very good indication of were the game was heading, slowly or not. Some of the gripe from players (including me) seems to come from not knowing the general direction of the game (will it be like WOW? Will it be like FFXI? etc. etc.)

I'm sure the devs are working as hard as possible (why wouldn't they?), but when beta testing a game, if you want to make community feedback a priority, it's a good idea to tell people where the game is heading.

Not demanding anything... Just wanted to make that clear

Well written OP nonetheless!

[Sigmakan]

Still think a ROUGH timeline would be very helpful and appreciated by the fans. Don't see why the Dev team cant put one together. Obviously it cant be too specific with details or dates.

[Betelgeuzah]

Still think a ROUGH timeline would be very helpful and appreciated by the fans. Don't see why the Dev team cant put one together. Obviously it cant be too specific with details or dates.

-Rehauls come in two parts.
-First combat rehaul to come in Spring, alongside the dungeons.
-The next combat rehaul to come few months later.

What else do you need to know?

I personally wouldn't mind being told info like, ".... well we're not sure if it will work that way but we'll see!"

SE has only two answers: "Yes", or "No." There are no gray areas for the community. They are considering, they made a promise. They don't implement it, they broke the promise. That is how the community works, for good and for bad.

We received a lot of this kind of information before the game went live. Most of the features presented to us did not end up in the game or were completely irrelevant because they were not properly realized. They sounded good on paper but did not work out in reality. It makes no sense to give us this sort of information when there's a good chance that's how it'll end up either way. We'll get hyped, then it gets crushed.

[Abriael]

Still think a ROUGH timeline would be very helpful and appreciated by the fans.

You obviously haven't been around the forums of games the developers of which were so unprofessional as to give the "rough timeline" you demand (bad, bad error in game development) and were eaten alive when such timeline happened to slip (because in development timelines slip a lot, and often).

It's simply a no no for any dev worth his salt. You simply don't promise stuff that isn't finalyzed, and considering how much wrong can be found during testing, timelines are the last thing that get finalyzed.

It's funny how some have such immense troubles in understanding this very, very simple concept.

[Sigmakan]

You obviously haven't been around the forums of games the developers of which were so unprofessional as to give the "rough timeline" you demand (bad, bad error in game development) and were eaten alive when such timeline happened to slip (because in development timelines slip a lot, and often).

It's simply a no no for any dev worth his salt. You simply don't promise stuff that isn't finalyzed, and considering how much wrong can be found during testing, timelines are the last thing that get finalyzed.

It's funny how some have such immense troubles in understanding this very, very simple concept.

Appreciate the condescending tone!

They were off to a good start with those large tables in the first few dev letters. Would like to see updated versions of those.

Or were those unprofessional as well?