Holy crap! <Late Main Quest Spoilers>

[Than_Ambresin]

I highly doubt Thancred’s possession took place during the Bahamut incident or beforehand: based on how I’ve analyzed the story, there’s a pretty good indication of exactly when it happens. Incoming long post!

First of all, a bit on what Minfilia stated about how the Ascian binding works:

Minfilia: Mayhap you know this already, but the Ascians are immortal beings without physical form. Since time immemorial, they have fanned the flames of chaos from the shadows. That they might work unseen, the Ascians entrap and possess mortal men by means of malign artifacts known as Crystals of Darkness. [One such Crystal may yet be the key to saving Thancred].

So, going by that, and what we see in the ending, we know this Crystal of Darkness was in the form of a necklace around Thancred’s neck. We see it shatter inside of the Echo where the player meets with Hydaelyn. The question is: when exactly did that necklace binding appear? We’ll analyze the timeline.

Beginning of the story, including the “New Beginning” fmv, Thancred is his usual suave, swagger-walking self, chipper and full of himself. You continue to see his “normal” behavior during the Drybone leg of missions up to Ifrit. Ifrit’s incident however, is more or less the catalyst.

His failure to arrive in time to assist the player, leading to the decision to terminate the lives of all the people, allies and traitors alike, who were touched by Ifrit, weighed heavily on his mind. Coupled with the fact that he and the other Archons were still reeling by the loss of Louisoix, it placed Thancred in a position to want to over-achieve. From here, his personality makes its decline.

If the player walks around in the Waking Sands after the Ifrit fight, he is sitting on a couple of boxes, and makes a comment about how he has to become better with his knives to match the player’s skill. There is also, of course, the conversation he has with Minfilia before the player walks into the room, with feelings of guilt over the situation. Also, when he walks out of the room, he says “If only Louisoix were here.”

Further evidence of his decline in personality is the conversation with the Scions in the quest “The Black Wolf’s Ultimatum”, which takes place right after they escape Castrum Centri.

Minfilia: Even for an Archon, Thancred’s talents are exceptional. We all had complete confidence in him. It was for this reason that none among us foresaw the danger in sending him to investigate the Ascians alone.
Papalymo: Thancred had been striving to fill the void left by Louisoix. Yet it was plain that he was overtaxing himself.
Yda: Yeah…He would volunteer for everything and work till he was dizzy.
Alphinaud: And the toll taken by his exertions made him vulnerable to Ascian influence…

So we know from the quest “Escape from Castrum Centri”, that it was Alphinaud who suggested Thancred investigate the Ascians. When exactly then, did he take off for the mission? Right when the player heads to investigate the Sylphs and a possible threat of Ramuh summoning.

If the player returns to the Waking Sands, Thancred is nowhere to be found. Y’shtola, and Urianger are in the storage room, as are several other Scions. Yda and Papalymo, of course, are assisting the player with the quests in the Shroud.

So when exactly does Thancred return from his mission? Right in the middle of the Sylphs quests (I currently have "First Contact" flagged on this character). All is seemingly well, as Thancred even suggests that the player not head to Limsa Lominsa to defeat Titan without Y’shtola. But if you look closely at his neck..



Ding ding. He’s already been tampered with. To what extent, I’m not sure, but as of this point in the story, he still seems to be in his own senses. If the player returns to the Waking Sands, he can be found standing just outside of Minfilia's office, where he mentions he will be conducting his own investigations while the player is out in the Shroud. A few quests later, he is sitting in some chairs near the exit to Vesper Bay. He’s hunched over, with an obvious air of trouble around him. He comments something along the lines of “Oh? It’s nothing…I’m just reflecting on recent developments.”



By the time you return from your victory against Titan, all hell at the Waking Sands has broken loose. Thancred is nowhere to be seen, but it doesn’t immediately concern the remaining Scions who weren’t taken captive. In fact, Thancred’s name doesn’t even come up until Papalymo asks the player about him as they’re breaking out of Castrum Centri.

Some questions:

When is Thancred, Thancred, and when is he Lahabrea?

This is where it gets tricky, but my strong intuition tells me the possession didn’t happen right away. Whether it’s a technical resource thing on SE’s part or intentional, I don’t know, but I got to studying the Lahabrea model closely after watching the ending to see if I could figure this out. The facial structure of Lahabrea’s chin does not match that of Thancred, for one. The masked one has a wider, rounder jaw, while Than’s is smoother and a bit pointier.

The first time we see the red-masked Lahabrea is in Toto-Rak, where he gives his name as such, and we hear his voice, which is distinctly different from Thancred’s. Immediately after Toto-Rak, we see normally clothed Thancred in the Waking Sands, wearing the necklace. His voice is the same voice we’ve been hearing since “Under the Sultantree”.

Lahabrea’s next appearance is at the Stone Vigil, when he rouses the dragon from his slumber to pester you. This is well after the raid on the Waking Sands, but the model is still the wide-chinned red-masked Lahabrea.
We don’t see Lahabrea or Thancred again until Castrum Centri, where he pulls off his hood. From there, we see a fully possessed Thanbrea, complete with Lahabrea’s masked-voice.

But this also brings up the question: if my theory is wrong, and if the possession took place immediately, why is it then, that Thancred would willingly suggest Y’shtola accompany the player to Titan’s lair, instead of summoning Livia and the horde of Garleans to raid the place, knowing that the player is there? The purpose of Livia’s raid was to capture the player, after all.

And if he was still himself when he suggested Y’shtola go with the player to Titan, how is it that he does NOT know about the crystal around his very neck? Did he willingly make a pact with the Ascians? Some kind of plea bargain, or perhaps, he tried to take on something he could not handle on his own? Speculate away!

[Tenkuu]

First of all, I apologize in advance for the necro-posting, but this is a really interesting thread.

So, going by that, and what we see in the ending, we know this Crystal of Darkness was in the form of a necklace around Thancred’s neck. We see it shatter inside of the Echo where the player meets with Hydaelyn. The question is: when exactly did that necklace binding appear? We’ll analyze the timeline.

Since I'm right in the middle of these quests right now on an alt, I can tell you that immediately after taking the quest to go see the Sylphs from Minfilia, you can walk outside of the Solar and talk to Thancred who will just be standing there, and he will already have the dark crystal necklace. I don't actually know whether it's a bug that he has it this early given the fact that in the cutscene where you get the Sylph quest, he's there and not wearing it, but either way, that's the earliest that I've spotted him wearing it.

So we know from the quest “Escape from Castrum Centri”, that it was Alphinaud who suggested Thancred investigate the Ascians. When exactly then, did he take off for the mission? Right when the player heads to investigate the Sylphs and a possible threat of Ramuh summoning.

When you're reporting the Sylph quests to Minfilia, everyone is there in the office except for Thancred who, both before and after you report it, is sitting near the entrance to Waking Sands on a stool, again wearing the necklace. Before you actually walk in during that cutscene though, Alphinaud is there talking with Minfilia, and among other things they discuss an unnamed matter which they are having Thancred investigate, and the way Alphinaud is talking it seems like Thancred just gave him an update. There's almost no doubt that this is the Ascian investigation.

If the player returns to the Waking Sands, Thancred is nowhere to be found. Y’shtola, and Urianger are in the storage room, as are several other Scions. Yda and Papalymo, of course, are assisting the player with the quests in the Shroud.

I don't know about if you return during the Sylph quests, but as mentioned above, right after you get the Sylph quests, you can already find him wearing the necklace, whether this is a mistake or not.

But this also brings up the question: if my theory is wrong, and if the possession took place immediately, why is it then, that Thancred would willingly suggest Y’shtola accompany the player to Titan’s lair, instead of summoning Livia and the horde of Garleans to raid the place, knowing that the player is there? The purpose of Livia’s raid was to capture the player, after all.

I think Thancred was himself when he said that, but assuming for a moment that he wasn't, it could simply be Lahabrea playing a game of divide and conquer, especially since he probably would have known that Yda had also remained in Gridania. For me, this reinforces the notion that Lahabrea only meant to separate us from the Scions, and perhaps even carefully kept the strongest combatants such as Thancred, Yda and Y'shtola away so that the raid would have no chance of failing.

I think your theory is correct, but my personal opinion has always been that Lahabrea's and the Garlean's goals were different. I think Lahabrea was more interested in separating us from the other Scions whereas the Garleans wanted to capture us to study the Echo. Just look at us between the raid and Alphinaud's appearance at the church: we don't know what to do. I think Lahabrea knew we would lose our purpose without the guidance of the Scions.

And if he was still himself when he suggested Y’shtola go with the player to Titan, how is it that he does NOT know about the crystal around his very neck? Did he willingly make a pact with the Ascians? Some kind of plea bargain, or perhaps, he tried to take on something he could not handle on his own? Speculate away!

The necklace is fairly inconspicuous, to be fair, but given what Thancred says after the 2.0 endgame, he was likely well aware of having it and didn't think it posed a danger to him, and thus fell into Lahabrea's trap. The way he says it, he took on more than he could handle without realizing it.