Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

[kyrios91]

With Dragoon you want as little skillspeed and as much crit/det as possible.

Not necessarily, in T9's case you'd like to have enough skill speed to land an extra hit before the boss Jumps off to some of his skills.

I'd guess so. I always researched and most threads said that as a DRG you gotta prioritize CRIT and DET than SSpd. So basically this set is better than my previous one? http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/MWRI

[kyrios91]

*Continued from my post above*

The reason I doubt it because there's this guy in my LS that 'interviewed' me before helping me out for T5 (He didn't helped out eventually, lame). He asked my gear / stats and my rotation. I said that my gears and stats are exactly on that link I provided above, and my rotation is the exact same rotation from this guide - the Rotation Reborn. He started saying that "Oh my DRG deals better damage / You have the wrong rotation / You gotta put more Skill Speed" etc. I started to explain why CRIT / DET >> SSpd and the reason behind my gearsets, and he kept saying that I'm wrong and still gotta work on my rotation. He said "My DRG deals more damage but he's more undergeared than yours". In my thought, I'm really sure he's just this elitist guy who likes to call bullshit because he wrote his stats and he has lower DET and STR than me, and I don't really think someone with lower DET and STR and outdamage someone with a higher stat (Logically).

[Altena]

A topic for discussion - How much can you clip Chaos Thrust before losing out on damage?

Raw potency, Chaos has a higher potency if you clip the debuff at 20 seconds (compared to Full Thrust).
The downside is that the DoT from Chaos is unaffected by the piercing damage from Disembowel.
So my question - at what point does clipping Chaos become better then doing a FT combo?

Eye-balling the math which I am pretty terrible at (going to leave Heavy Thrust out of this for now for simplicity). Also assume you will be clipping Disembowel (so account for piercing damage), values are in potency:
ID > Dis > CT(DoT)
= 198 + 242 + 220 + (300)
= 660 + DoT(300)

TT > VT > FT
= 165 + 220 + 363
= 748

Therefore the DoT from Chaos would have to do 88 potency (3 ticks, approximately 9 seconds) in order to be worth clipping rather then using FT.
So in other words - technically speaking, you would be better off clipping Chaos after those 3 ticks of DoT then you would if you were to do FT combo.

This does exclude Heavy & Life Surge (If Life Surge is up, then FT would definitely be more beneficial).

What do people think of this?

[pompey_dan]

A topic for discussion - How much can you clip Chaos Thrust before losing out on damage?

Raw potency, Chaos has a higher potency if you clip the debuff at 20 seconds (compared to Full Thrust).
The downside is that the DoT from Chaos is unaffected by the piercing damage from Disembowel.
So my question - at what point does clipping Chaos become better then doing a FT combo?

Eye-balling the math which I am pretty terrible at (going to leave Heavy Thrust out of this for now for simplicity). Also assume you will be clipping Disembowel (so account for piercing damage), values are in potency:
ID > Dis > CT(DoT)
= 198 + 242 + 220 + (300)
= 660 + DoT(300)

TT > VT > FT
= 165 + 220 + 363
= 748

Therefore the DoT from Chaos would have to do 88 potency (3 ticks, approximately 9 seconds) in order to be worth clipping rather then using FT.
So in other words - technically speaking, you would be better off clipping Chaos after those 3 ticks of DoT then you would if you were to do FT combo.

This does exclude Heavy & Life Surge (If Life Surge is up, then FT would definitely be more beneficial).

What do people think of this?

Huh? I don't know if I'm understanding you correctly but are you trying to say that clipping CT after 3 ticks is better then using FT combo filler lol?

You left out on your maths that CT dot will be ticking when both clipping CT and when using FT combo.

The only time you should be clipping CT by a large amount is if you knew there was a disconnect of 20s coming and could time your CT to hit just before the disconnect. There would need to be at least less then 21 seconds on CT at the time it hits for it to start becoming worth it.

[Altena]

Huh? I don't know if I'm understanding you correctly but are you trying to say that clipping CT after 3 ticks is better then using FT combo filler lol?

You left out on your maths that CT dot will be ticking when both clipping CT and when using FT combo.

Well no, it won't be better and after rereading my OP I can understand why you think that is what I am saying as I wasn't very clear. You will be missing out on the DoT from Chaos that ticks while you do a 2nd FT combo. I guess what I am trying to figure out is at what point is it "ok" to clip CT, as we all know in a normal fight - you won't be able to get the full "optimal rotation" due to disconnects.

For example, when you return to the mob, let's say there are 5 ticks (or 15 seconds) remaining on CT (this is pretty much after Chaos & 1x FT filler, plus the few seconds of disconnect breaking vines or whatever). This means that CT will actually fall off while you are refreshing it, if you were to do a FT filler before doing so. The alternative is to clip CT by about 2 ticks (or 5ish seconds).

What is the "threshold" in which clipping CT is better then doing an extra FT? Is it better to clip CT by a few ticks or let it fall off for 2 or so ticks?

-----

On another note, I think that the SS discussion that is going on is rather moot (honestly I haven't been reading much or any of it, just glanced).

In order to fully benefit from SS, you would need to stay on the same mob, or continuously use skills for a minimum of 25 GCD's (Assuming your GCD is 2.4 compared to 2.5) to be better off, and in addition your attacks hit for less. The moment you disconnect at less then 25 attacks (at a .1 second difference in GCD) your .1 GCD difference is rendered useless.

I am bad at math though.

[PArcher]

What is the "threshold" in which clipping CT is better then doing an extra FT? Is it better to clip CT by a few ticks or let it fall off for 2 or so ticks?

Probably only when you have insane Skill Speed and are able to get 2.5 FT combos + HT/PH alternates in while CT tics, not counting the time it takes to refresh CT (so, able to get 2.5 FT combos + alts in ~24 seconds, ish...which is around 12 GDC or about 2-second GDCs)

That's just speculation I put down above. But I'm sure it will only be "worth" it when you get enough SS to require fillers (Fracture says Hi) again. But then our TP cries horribly, so yeah, probably want to avoid that.

Ultimately, you'd have to do all the fun math (including HT buff) and a TON of testing on dummies. And you have to remember you must finish a combo, so that does influence this a lot...which is why I said insanely high SS is likely to cause this (and I mean sustained, not just Selene-buffed) I'm guessing the end result would be either "always do 1 CT to 2 FT, regardless of SS" or "you need to have fillers (Fracture) added to keep CT from clipping as SS goes up". Yeah, do the math with Fracture as filler too...

[Altena]

Ultimately, you'd have to do all the fun math (including HT buff) and a TON of testing on dummies. And you have to remember you must finish a combo, so that does influence this a lot...which is why I said insanely high SS is likely to cause this (and I mean sustained, not just Selene-buffed) I'm guessing the end result would be either "always do 1 CT to 2 FT, regardless of SS" or "you need to have fillers (Fracture) added to keep CT from clipping as SS goes up". Yeah, do the math with Fracture as filler too...

So basically what I understand from your post - you feel it is better to let CT fall off for 2-3 ticks then it is to clip it for about the same?

Assume you have a disconnect that lasts for half of a FT combo - so your choice is to clip it, or do your 2nd FT and let it fall off. The other part to consider is if you are letting Chaos fall off for a few ticks, you are also letting Disembowel fall off for an extra GCD on top of that - so the FT during the 2nd combo would likely not have the 10% piercing buff.

[Maxin_Rudy]

so, how should we upgrade our novus? considering that i only have acess to sold gear, i guess i should cap det and drop all (or almost all) acc in favor of crit, since cap is 495, anything above it is just worthless or should i'll be above the cap by a little just to be sure?

[whiskeybravo]

Been having some fun with an extremely low accuracy set for dungeons and primals... So low in fact, that I've actually noticed some misses from the front in lv50 Dungeons and Ex primals.. I am sad and proud at the same time lol.. Only 353 accuracy.. 504 Crit, 344 Det, and 469 SkSp.. Item level 93 build.. Would be nice if I had some 2nd coil drops to play with

[JetBrooks]

Been having some fun with an extremely low accuracy set for dungeons and primals... So low in fact, that I've actually noticed some misses from the front in lv50 Dungeons and Ex primals.. I am sad and proud at the same time lol.. Only 353 accuracy.. 504 Crit, 344 Det, and 469 SkSp.. Item level 93 build.. Would be nice if I had some 2nd coil drops to play with

I'm surprised you missed in dungeons, funny. EX Primals require T5 accuracy, right?