Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

[EasymodeX]

Does Fracture have a duration of 30s or 18s? I had used 18s in my spreadsheet based on one source but I just saw another that had more detail, clarifying that the duration is changed to 30s after level 28. Is that right? If it's 30s then it is efficient.

Edit: Nevermind, that's the traited Fracture. Silly websites listing traited MRD values for DRG.

On a separate subject, I double checked and the TP regen is 60 per 3s, not 30, so yeah I'm guesstimating roughly 30 burn, 20 regen per second. 100 seconds of burn without Invig., 150s with. Only able to use about 75% of GCDs after you run dry.

Edit:

Apparently I can't make another post. So:

So I looked at the rotation in the OP in detail and it has 89% HT uptime (assuming HT does not buff itself, which is a safe-ish assumption based on the "snapshot" behavior for DOTs), 89% DE uptime, 89% CT uptime, and 80% PH uptime.


Another way to write your rotation is:

HT FR PH ID DE CT TT VT FT
HT FR PH TT VT FT ID DE CT
HT FR PH TT VT FT TT VT FT

The HT buff does not time neatly with the ID/DE/CT (herafter referred to as IDC combo or IDC), so you are using HT to anchor the rotation and shifting the IDC to accomodate the timing. The issue is that this full rotation does not overlap with itself. The third line of that rotation has no IDC sequence, because you used it at the "end" of the second line. The problem is that when you repeat this rotation, the first half of the "4th" line will not have the DE debuff or CT DOT, resulting in 89% uptime only.

Assuming we stick to strict-ish 2.5s GCDs (e.g. no/low skill speed), I drafted a rotation based on using IDC as the anchor (because it's the largest and most awkward part of the sequence):

IDC HT ttt PH ttt HT
IDC PH ttt HT ttt PH

This is a 2-line rotation that's anchored by IDC, and alternates HT-PH-HT with PH-HT-PH. This results in 100% uptime for DE, PH, HT, and CT. The "ttt" refers to the True/Vorpal/Full Thrust combo filler. The main difference in my rotation is that the staggered HT/PH and PH/HT allows the HT-PH 20-second timing to interleave with the IDC 30-second timing without conflict. The problem is that the rotation is susceptible to clipping the CT DOT (everything else doesn't matter much) if you have any skill speed because it is exactly 100% uptime (this is a bad thing). The solution to that is some combination of "use Jump before CT" or "use off-GCD buffs before CT" or simply stutter the CT by a half second (make sure CT ticks down to 1.xx before you press the button). The other issue is that with a lot of skill speed the whole rotation's borked because it's pretty tight.

[Ayvar]

Does Fracture have a duration of 30s or 18s? I had used 18s in my spreadsheet based on one source but I just saw another that had more detail, clarifying that the duration is changed to 30s after level 28. Is that right? If it's 30s then it is efficient.

It's an 18s duration, but I find it's better to think in terms of potency. Both Fracture and Phlebotomize have a 120 potency DoT (18/3*20), and Chaos Thrust has a 200 potency DoT.

[xyaie]

Does Fracture have a duration of 30s or 18s? I had used 18s in my spreadsheet based on one source but I just saw another that had more detail, clarifying that the duration is changed to 30s after level 28. Is that right? If it's 30s then it is efficient.

Edit: Nevermind, that's the traited Fracture. Silly websites listing traited MRD values for DRG.

On a separate subject, I double checked and the TP regen is 60 per 3s, not 30, so yeah I'm guesstimating roughly 30 burn, 20 regen per second. 100 seconds of burn without Invig., 150s with. Only able to use about 75% of GCDs after you run dry.

Ahh. 60 every 3 sounds much better to me

Ayvar (multi-quoting sucks from my phone) arr you sure? I thought ours had a 160 base potency to fracture's 100. Not posative.

[Ayvar]

So I looked at the rotation in the OP in detail and it has 89% HT uptime (assuming HT does not buff itself, which is a safe-ish assumption based on the "snapshot" behavior for DOTs), 89% DE uptime, 89% CT uptime, and 80% PH uptime.


Another way to write your rotation is:

HT FR PH ID DE CT TT VT FT
HT FR PH TT VT FT ID DE CT
HT FR PH TT VT FT TT VT FT

The HT buff does not time neatly with the ID/DE/CT (herafter referred to as IDC combo or IDC), so you are using HT to anchor the rotation and shifting the IDC to accomodate the timing. The issue is that this full rotation does not overlap with itself. The third line of that rotation has no IDC sequence, because you used it at the "end" of the second line. The problem is that when you repeat this rotation, the first half of the "4th" line will not have the DE debuff or CT DOT, resulting in 89% uptime only.

Assuming we stick to strict-ish 2.5s GCDs (e.g. no/low skill speed), I drafted a rotation based on using IDC as the anchor (because it's the largest and most awkward part of the sequence):

IDC HT ttt PH ttt HT
IDC PH ttt HT ttt PH

This is a 2-line rotation that's anchored by IDC, and alternates HT-PH-HT with PH-HT-PH. This results in 100% uptime for DE, PH, HT, and CT. The "ttt" refers to the True/Vorpal/Full Thrust combo filler. The main difference in my rotation is that the staggered HT/PH and PH/HT allows the HT-PH 20-second timing to interleave with the IDC 30-second timing without conflict. The problem is that the rotation is susceptible to clipping the CT DOT (everything else doesn't matter much) if you have any skill speed because it is exactly 100% uptime (this is a bad thing). The solution to that is some combination of "use Jump before CT" or "use off-GCD buffs before CT" or simply stutter the CT by a half second (make sure CT ticks down to 1.xx before you press the button). The other issue is that with a lot of skill speed the whole rotation's borked because it's pretty tight.

I had considered this rotation before initially posting, but it runs into two main issues that made me decide against it. First let's compare how much extra damage you receive from complete uptime of HT/Disembowel vs. the slightly lower uptime of my own rotation, it's always best to consider potency and I'll use your notation to keep things simple.

Mine:

HFP IDC TTT
170-110/132-187/132-198-242-193/220-181-242-363

HFP TTT IDC
187-121/132-205/132-181-242-363-217-242-193/220

HFP TTT TTT
187-121/132-205/132-181-242-363-181-242-363

The Heavy Thrust buff falls off prior to its reapplication, as does the Disembowel prior to its own, which has been accounted for in the potency numbers. You also have to add on an extra two moves (so 29 moves total) for coming back to the beginning of the rotation as the initial Heavy Thrust and Fracture are now buffed by Disembowel, so +187-121/132 . Now the same treatment for yours:

Yours:

IDC H TTT P TTT H
180-220-176/200-187-181-242-363-205/132-181-242-363-205

IDC P TTT H TTT P
217-266-193/220-205/132-181-242-363-205-181-242-363-205/132

And then +217-266-193/220-205 for coming back to the start as these moves are now buffed by the end of the previous rotation (so 28 moves total). In total potency per second mine produces 109.1 potency/s (7594/69.6s) and yours produces 111.9 (7525/67.2).

So the potency is extremely close. This resolves our first issue, which is that you don't actually obtain any more damage by sacrificing Fracture for increased buff uptime. You could argue for increased autoattack damage in the very brief downtime of the buffs, but I doubt this would account for much extra damage.

The second issue is that the first rotation benefits from (1) boss downtime (such as moving out of AE) since you have more DoT damage ticking (MORE DOTS), and (2) it gets significantly better as we acquire more skill speed. As you remarked, the second rotation gets worse with added skill speed (which is inevitable given the future of the game), and since there are only two DoTs being applied instead of three, it starts falling behind as soon as you spend any time away from whatever you are hitting.

However, it deeply warms my heart to see people taking the dragoon moveset and trying to optimize it in ways I may not have thought of. I've been really pleased by how this thread has progressed (compared to say the "lol who is best dps" thread) and I've referred back to everyone's comments continually for useful information. So thank you all, let's keep doing the job that we love (no matter where we might fall on some unknown parse) and optimizing it in every way that we can!

[EasymodeX]

Yeah I haven't looked at that yet; a rough estimate is slightly over 26 TP per second spent for single target pew pew. IIRC in-combat TP regen was 30 every 3s, so 10 TP/s, but my memory is fuzzy. I think I saw it tick up at a different rate in a later fight.

Invig is +500 per 180. Going to assume you frontload Invig in some fashion.

So it's basically 1500 / (26 - 10) = 94 seconds* of constant single target pew pew with no skill speed before you hit 0. After you hit 0 you basically gain 2300t every 180 seconds, which funds 2300/26 = 89s worth of spam. That's 50% of the 180s, so you spend half the time autoattacking. Then, throw in bardstuff for which I have no idea how much it actually does.

* 63 seconds without Invig, which sounds vaguely right for the dungeon I did yesterday.

Sidenote: assuming bard buffs double your TP regen on average, you'd basically have infinite TP. If it increases regen by 50% avg, then you'd last 136 seconds at full throttle, and then run at ~70% spam ~30 AA-only afterwards.

Edit: Small changes in estimated TP per sec make a moderate difference -- Phleg and Heavy Thrust use a bit more than the Thrust x3 and ID-Disembowel-CT combo. Assuming 29 spent per second, that's 79s full burn then 45% spammed. At 50% bard buff, that's 107s full burn then 61% spam.

Edit2: I think 29/s is probably slightly low so real burn rates will be higher, but real fights will have missing contact time where you don't spend. That part probably evens out.

[xyaie]

hmm, i thought i got more TP back than that passively, easily could have been mistaking.

Im still thinking skill speed is going to be a big thing for us. While 94 seconds of uninterupted pew pewing will leave me TP starved, melee's usual "punishment" is that we lose DPS for having to move out of red circles. With enough skill speed (would change depending on the boss) we would be able to blow our damage/rotation/tp while on the boss, and the time spent off the boss/hiding would simply be "recover", auto attack being the only loss.

[Narcariel]

hmm, i thought i got more TP back than that passively, easily could have been mistaking.

Im still thinking skill speed is going to be a big thing for us. While 94 seconds of uninterupted pew pewing will leave me TP starved, melee's usual "punishment" is that we lose DPS for having to move out of red circles. With enough skill speed (would change depending on the boss) we would be able to blow our damage/rotation/tp while on the boss, and the time spent off the boss/hiding would simply be "recover", auto attack being the only loss.

You make a good point. My initial thought was to toss Skill Speed by the wayside due to its proclivity for TP starvation and lack of increase to auto-attack damage. After watching a few of the level 50 bosses there is an argument to be made for its benefits with the TP-recovery downtime between opportunities to dps.

[xyaie]

feint, in my opinion, is a "when needed" kind of ability. crafting the perfect rotation is pretty much a combat dummy only thing. There will be times when you have to move away from a boss, or he becomes immune, or you have to blow a defensive/healing CD rather than an offensive off the GCD ability, or feint/save stun for when its needed rather than worry about DPS. I would never -personally- include feint in my rotation, but would not hesitate to use it when needed.

to me, the idea is that you want to get as close to the perfect rotation for the entire fight as you can, knowing that its rare you will ever be 100%. So there isnt as much a point in having that perfect rotation that you strive including those things that pull you away from your maximum DPS.

[xyaie]

Ahh, my mistake. Misread.

Just got 50, only 2 of us in my fc atm. It seems the damage and crit rate formula is known. What is still unknown other than hit that can be tested without a group?

[Zoot]

Do Buffs like Heavy Thrust get applied when we hit the ability keybind or when they land?

To clarify.....if there's 1 sec left on HT and I hit an ability does the Buff get applied or would it not because the animation ends after the Buff has worn off? For some reason I'm having trouble even seeing the effect of HT in my logs.

The reason I ask is some games with complex animations only register damage when the ability lands.