Summoner Thoughts

[glim]

should add a spell that instantly applies all dots, cooldown maybe 1 minute and 30 seconds, or whatever. I don't really have fun when playing a summoner, wish I just played a black mage tbh.

[shinros]

Funny thing is Ryuko it is starting among raiders I was watching a stream and people in the chat and the streamer was saying for the garuda and further hard modes they would want a black mage or bard instead of the summoner that was with them.

should add a spell that instantly applies all dots, cooldown maybe 1 minute and 30 seconds, or whatever. I don't really have fun when playing a summoner, wish I just played a black mage tbh.

After re rolling a new character to thaumturge(reached black mage today) I have to say black mage is really fun especially when thundercloud procs.

[Ryuko]

Funny thing is Ryuko it is starting among raiders I was watching a stream and people in the chat and the streamer was saying for the garuda and further hard modes they would want a black mage or bard instead of the summoner that was with them.

I figured this would be the case. Following the stigma associated with summoners in the early endgame FFXI days, I think I am ready for this. I really hope the 'being able to kill adds quick' problem gets fixed real soon. Having better control of our pets would be a nice bonus, but at least that would be forgivable if we had our role in endgame. Even the absolute BEST summoners with the right rotations and the ability to dodge perfectly just can't keep up with a black mage's instant output. As far as endgame, I have a well-geared WHM from 1.0 (and even a BLM and BRD), but I would like to be able to play a class I enjoy... especially if you are REQUIRED to be on that class while earning your relic. Unfortunately, I think they have 'bigger fish to fry' with all the server issues at the moment. I expect a few adjustments during the first patch, but who knows when that will be.

On another note... I think summoner has the potential to be great for PvP, provided that we are able to get the distance we need. Unfortunately, with our low HP, low defense, and ability to throw pets at people... I think we'll be one of the main targets out of the gate. It takes time to build up the dots... and yet again, we could be dead before we even get to the point of using our 'real' damage from fester charges. Anyone who has a basic understanding of summoner will be watching our charges to know if we are a real 'threat' or not. The one ability I think we have which should really help us out is 'Rouse' for our pets. It makes them immune to CCs and adds a damage buff. Add that with our other cooldown damage buff and our pet becomes 'invincible' and very powerful for a short while. Like I said... we have potential, but I really need to try it in practice.

[Superskull85]

I'm not at end game yet but Bane seems fine to me. During bosses I only need to use it for adds if there are any (some of the higher bosses right now don't even have adds worth a lot). In the case of single target I save Aether Flow for Energy Drain. For adds leading up to bosses they usually get controlled (slept or bound) so I don't want to hit them anyways.

I do agree that DoT may a problem. With Bio, Bio II, Miasma and Thunder I have room only for 4 Ruin's before I have to recast them. With Miasma II and Shadow Flare in the mix I foresee only about 2 Ruin's per rotation. Which I don't mind as long as the DoT is enough (I like DoT classes a lot and find that much more sustainable).

As for pets the caster pets Emerald Topez and Garduda are easy to control because their commands are clippable with DoT's. Using the Heel command is much better compared to Place which I see some SMN's use.

[Ryuko]

I'm not at end game yet but Bane seems fine to me. During bosses I only need to use it for adds if there are any (some of the higher bosses right now don't even have adds worth a lot). In the case of single target I same Aether Flow for Energy Drain. For adds leading up to bosses they usually get controlled (slept or bound) so I don't want to hit them anyways.

A really good example of where SMN runs into trouble with not being able to kill adds quickly enough is in the Sunken Temple. I mention this because it's a 37 dungeon and you'll be ready for it soon. On the first boss, there are two bees that periodically spawn. You need to down those two bees before it's too late, or the bees will 'Final Sting' someone for a LOT of damage. (Like in XI, final sting is dependent on how much HP the mob has left... but it can be deadly.) Even with Energy Drain and spreading dots (if the mobs stay together), you will have trouble killing these adds quickly enough. Hopefully, you will be partnered with a DPS who knows what to do and will help you down them quickly.

The last boss of that dungeon also spawns a lot of adds (staves) that need to be killed over time. The tricky part about these is that you have to keep moving (you'll see why -- I don't want to give it away). Your dps against these adds that can't be brought together will be very low compared to the other DPS. At some point, you will need to 'solo' one of these staves in a set time period. Unless you have cooldowns (fester/drain), you won't be able to kill it in time. Killing it is important because it reduces the dps of an AoE that hits the party. When I did this run with a black mage, the difference in our ability to down stuff quickly was really apparent. I can only imagine that these two examples are a sign of 'things to come'.

[Superskull85]

A really good example of where SMN runs into trouble with not being able to kill adds quickly enough is in the Sunken Temple.
[..]

Well I guess I'll see it when I get there as like I said I am not quite at end game yet. Did you use Raging Strikes in here? I don't see that mentioned as a buff a lot when talking about SMN. Switching your pet to the add should also be done if it wasn't (I don't know what your exact strategy would be in that situation).

[Superskull85]

I would be interested to see how SMN fairs in raids (8 man, 16 man, 24 man, etc). It's ability to control, heal and tank while also keeping a consistent damage on the boss might be a plus especially if you utilize your pets and buffs while clipping. Level 50's will know about SMN then I do at the moment of course, but SMN is not a bad class by any means.

[Crescent_Dusk]

I would be interested to see how SMN fairs in raids (8 man, 16 man, 24 man, etc). It's ability to control, heal and tank while also keeping a consistent damage on the boss might be a plus especially if you utilize your pets and buffs while clipping. Level 50's will know about SMN then I do at the moment of course, but SMN is not a bad class by any means.

What control, a slow? Tanking? This isn't low lv dungeon pugging. In raids, the SMN never tanks.

Just wait till 50, please. A lot of misconceptions will be dispelled. In raids what matters is filling a niche, and doing so well.

[Vackashken]

If you pay attention to the lore of the main quest and the summoner quest, you will understand why our egis have the appearance that they do. I'm okay with this because it fits in with the lore of the world. They are pretty small, but this is okay because we are only summoning but a small fraction of the power. That has nothing to do with the 'functionality' of the class.

The lore isn't an excuse in the slightest and its actually tiresome to keep seeing this red-herring. An avatar doesn't mean or equate to a stunted, malformed, misshapen version of something. It's a manifestation of the summons power - that can mean whatever it wants really. There is no pigeonholing in what it should or shouldn't look like. A smaller version with detail implies it's an avatar just as much as the grease smears that we have now.

[Kevee]

- The 2.5 sec GCD triggering for DoT's increases our ramp up time, which is already too high. It takes 7.5 seconds to start doing your full DPS. This is not the case for the other classes. DoT's and instant spells should be on a separate 0.5 sec cd or off the GCD entirely.

We need a ramp up time for how much damage we do over time. It is the case for other classes, they don't just start using 300 potency attacks. We can start with with 350 potency attacks, it just does the damage over time.

- The pet's command set, while good potentially, is hampered by the GCD as you cannot command while casting or under the GCD. This is pretty important as some instantkill spells are somehow affecting pets, yet we can't command the pet to move in time.

GCD has nothing to do with commanding a pet. You can't command a pet while casting, or under the animation from an instant spell/off GCD spell. Between those time, during GCD, you are free to command your pet.

- The lack of burst really hurts in most content as there are phases where you NEED immediate damage to not risk a wipe. Fester and Enkindle were supposed to be our burst buttons, but the first requires 7.5 seconds of DoT application to deal the potential burst damage, while the other is a whopping 5 minute cooldown to do about only 20% more damage than a Fester, which is on a much lesser CD.

Where does it hurt?

The solution is to revamp Fester and make it apply the full damage bonus if ANY dot is on the target.

No thanks.

- Debuffs affecting the pet. Sustain should apply a periodic condition removal on top of increasing the effectiveness of the heal. Asking healers to take the additional burden of cleansing the pet hurts this class as the other classes don't place these burdens on the healers when they do their job.

I can agree with this. Sometimes it's just not feasible to move your pet, and an ability to cure them of debuffs is something that would be nice.


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- Ruin is too weak. Even with the combination of the pet auto it falls behind the bread and butter of the other classes. Ruin II is problematic as well because the Paladin himself already applies Blind, making the incentive of using this spell outside the purpose of squeezing instant damage weak. Ruin II could afford a cooldown of like 3 seconds and see its damage increased.

Ruin needs to be weak because of our pet. It doesn't fall behind the bread and butter of other classes. True Thrust/Impulse Drive - 150/180 potency. Boostone/Dragon Kick - 130/150 potency, Heavy Shot - 150 potency. These are all their "spammables" and ruin+pet is either equal, or greater, than these.

- Tri-Disaster is a horrible spell. 3 second cast for an aoe bind as the damage is pitiful just doesn't work well. It's sorely disappointing and overshadowed by the BLM's sleep.

While I agree Tri-Disaster is horrible, it still has a place. It's still an AoE bind, and when fighting 4+ targets it's better than ruin after applying your DoTs.

- Miasma II does way too little damage.

It's good for AoE. After applying DoTs, you should be using Miasma II before Ruin in an AoE situation. It being instant helps.

- Sustain needs a healthy buff in healing done. Additionally, it should remove one debuff off the pet per periodic tick.

Healing is fine, I agree with the second portion.

- Enkindle should be a 15-20 second cooldown for what it actually does. With Rouse and Spur both up, an Ifrit egi enkindle is hitting for a pitiful 440-500 damage. This is what a black mage with astral fire does on his spammable nuke at 50.

Are you forgetting about everything else we have? Fester and our DoTs?

To think that a 400 damage skill is on a whopping 5 minute cd is horrendous. Hell, building a lv1 limit break is faster and does more damage than it!

It gives us burst AoE which is the one thing we're lacking.

I also think the cast times on some of the summoner spells are a bit high, namely Shadowflare and Tri-Disaster. The DoT's should be 1.5-2 second casts, as should Ruin. This would greatly help with reducing the silly ramp-up to damage.

Tri-disaster should be instant, shadow Flare should be 2.5s just like the other DoTs. Shadow flare also needs to have a click/press-to-cast function so we don't have to click an area after we press the key for the skill.

On the Tonberry King I had to slap 2 dots and a Ruin II on an add to chop off 60-70% of its HP in a sequence. The neighboring Blackmage had to press at most 2 buttons with no cast times and the add was immediately dead.

Did you command your pet to attack it? No? Did your tank know how to function with a SMN so you could Bane the adds? No? Did you have Shadow flare properly placed? No? I'll admit, burning down adds when people don't know what they're doing as, or with, a SMN is very bad and frustrating. If you know how to do it, you're golden. Most peopel say SMN is bad for Garuda, but you're actually VERY good for it.

If you're going to design many fights with DPS checks and burst necessities, then the Summoner needs to be tweaked or it will be replaced in favor of other classes. The summoner has good sustained damage, but not something that the BLM or other classes aren't matching, and those classes have burst to boot.

Most classes aren't matching, and especially not BLM. We do have burst if you're playing with competent people.

A really good example of where SMN runs into trouble with not being able to kill adds quickly enough is in the Sunken Temple. I mention this because it's a 37 dungeon and you'll be ready for it soon. On the first boss, there are two bees that periodically spawn. You need to down those two bees before it's too late, or the bees will 'Final Sting' someone for a LOT of damage. (Like in XI, final sting is dependent on how much HP the mob has left... but it can be deadly.) Even with Energy Drain and spreading dots (if the mobs stay together), you will have trouble killing these adds quickly enough. Hopefully, you will be partnered with a DPS who knows what to do and will help you down them quickly.

The last boss of that dungeon also spawns a lot of adds (staves) that need to be killed over time. The tricky part about these is that you have to keep moving (you'll see why -- I don't want to give it away). Your dps against these adds that can't be brought together will be very low compared to the other DPS. At some point, you will need to 'solo' one of these staves in a set time period. Unless you have cooldowns (fester/drain), you won't be able to kill it in time. Killing it is important because it reduces the dps of an AoE that hits the party. When I did this run with a black mage, the difference in our ability to down stuff quickly was really apparent. I can only imagine that these two examples are a sign of 'things to come'.

Is this a joke? Is this why people are saying SMN are bad?

Sunken Temple, first boss. Bees always spawn in the same place. Make the tank tank there, Bane. The adds are dead.

Last boss, Command pet to help(they can pass through the barrier, btw) -> Bio -> Ruin Spam -> Dead staves. You also have the option of saving energy drain for these, but it's not needed.