[dev1022] The Battle Regimen HATE thread and a ply for auto-attack

[Majidah]

I hate battle regimen...

Why are they so bad?

• Final Fantasy XI had auto-attack so you wouldn't have to mash the same basic attack over and over (isn't that just redundant?) and required of timing and coordination (which skill to use, when was it okay to start the skill chain and when was the chain window open for the next skill to be triggered). On the other hand Final Fantasy XIV does exactly the opposite: it forces the player to mash the same action repeatedly in order to get TP, and then removes any need for player to player coordination or timing precise action by boxing the combo into a floating queue that pretty much does everything automatically. You don't even need to pick any skill in particular for them to chain!
• When setting up a BR each player that enters the chain queue is frozen solid and rendered unable to do anything else. This lowers the DPS, stops players from using strategical abilities (such as provoke, cure, etc) and more importantly ... if you want to cast buffs to be used with your ability, you need to do them before engaging, meaning that if they don't get it off extra quickly all buffs will wear off unused due to being stuck in a limbo!

If anything, BRs only achieve one thing: to further enable the player to watch tv or talk on MSN while playing. Its a system designed to pay less attention to what you're doing in the actual game.

I just can't get over the fact that SE decided to make us push the same button over and over and over and over while making skill chains pretty much auto-skill chains! Its so backwards!

[Impulse]

You've never done a proper BR then.
A BR will increase DPS by a nice amount, granted your PT mates who will be participating in it cooperate and stack in a timely manner. I take it you haven't looked at the debuffs granted via BR, nor the increased damage output from a stack of 3+. If everyone stacks up in an efficient manner, you'll be back to attacking/healing/voking/etc in a matter of seconds.

If anything, BRs only achieve one thing: to further enable the player to watch tv or talk on MSN while playing. Its a system designed to pay less attention to what you're doing in the actual game.

Yeah, because auto attack won't do that at all. Again, cooperate with each other and you will pop a BR in less than a few seconds and be back to whatever you decide to do in battle.

[Majidah]

Yeah, because auto attack won't do that at all. Again, cooperate with each other and you will pop a BR in less than a few seconds and be back to whatever you decide to do in battle.

The only thing autoattack does is give more time to talk with your teamates and to think and trigger skills without downtime caused by moving through your skills.
Or even better, where did you pay more attention during battles? In XI with its autoattack or in XIV with its consistant mashing?

Answer: XI.

And well, the player involvement required in skillchains being a lot higher than BR isn't even up for argument.

edit // PS:
Also, if it didn't work the way it did, you'd have more time to trigger buffs off or harness more TP for 2k+ tp skills. You also wouldn't be risking having your buffs wear off due to someone else. You'd be a lot more in control.

Do you like the effects of BRs? I said nothing against them. You could easily keep those without giving away all the control you have over whats being done.

The roles are reversed here: BRs basically make the system play for you, while you do what the system should be doing. Mashing one over and over.

[Mack]

I take it you haven't looked at the debuffs granted via BR, nor the increased damage output from a stack of 3+.

This wasn't the point because this would be the same if it was done in a manner similar to skillchains, it would just be more DPS because you're not waiting for everyone to cue up.

[Impulse]

This wasn't the point because this would be the same if it was done in a manner similar to skillchains, it would just be more DPS because you're not waiting for everyone to cue up.

It's part of the point s/he was attempting to make. They said BRs lower DPS which is entirely false. I don't see how you could have distorted that into something skillchainish since this is how it is now. The only way you would be losing DPS and sitting in queue via regimen would be if your party sucks and doesn't know how to pull off a BR properly and efficiently. You shouldn't be in queue for more than 2 seconds.

http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/113092734-4.jpg
The BR executed before that screenshot was taken took Downy Dunstan down from near full to dead in less than 3 seconds, where whacking it without BR would've taken at least a minute or two.
How you get "more DPS" without BR is beyond me. Sure, it'll seem that way if your group is slow to stack and execute the regime but the fact of the matter is that it does *not* lower DPS and only increases it, both immediately and over time via the debuffs granted.

[Speeral]

well maximum 5 second . .

profundity II increased cast times for mages, if chainspell is down.

[Majidah]

It's part of the point s/he was attempting to make. They said BRs lower DPS which is entirely false. I don't see how you could have distorted that into something skillchainish since this is how it is now. The only way you would be losing DPS and sitting in queue via regimen would be if your party sucks and doesn't know how to pull off a BR properly and efficiently. You shouldn't be in queue for more than 2 seconds.

http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/113092734-4.jpg
The BR executed before that screenshot was taken took Downy Dunstan down from near full to dead in less than 3 seconds, where whacking it without BR would've taken at least a minute or two.
How you get "more DPS" without BR is beyond me. Sure, it'll seem that way if your group is slow to stack and execute the regime but the fact of the matter is that it does *not* lower DPS and only increases it, both immediately and over time via the debuffs granted.

BRs do lower DPS. Then make it up with extra damage. But does it lower DPS by freezing everyone in a limbo? Yes it does.
Think about it this way:
Lets say 5 players are doing a BR. The first one starts it, then four more stack up. From the first one triggering it, to the fifth one, each player is wasting stamina they could be using to attack.

On the other hand, if there was no queue menu and it was done like skillchains were done, people would still be able to whack the enemy in the meantime. Thats 4 players actively attacking.

You might be great at coordinating with your friends and unleashing BRs, but you can't deny there's a limbo. And that you could be doing something else in the meantime. Like casting a cure or triggering a provoke, or even increasing the DPS with a normal attack.

Not to mention that putting everything in an automatic menu takes away the fun/challenge entirely from the battle. You plan how it goes once. That's about it for BRs.

[Alcide]

BRs do lower DPS. Then make it up with extra damage. But does it lower DPS by freezing everyone in a limbo? Yes it does.
Think about it this way:
Lets say 5 players are doing a BR. The first one starts it, then four more stack up. From the first one triggering it, to the fifth one, each player is wasting stamina they could be using to attack.

On the other hand, if there was no queue menu and it was done like skillchains were done, people would still be able to whack the enemy in the meantime. Thats 4 players actively attacking.

You might be great at coordinating with your friends and unleashing BRs, but you can't deny there's a limbo. And that you could be doing something else in the meantime. Like casting a cure or triggering a provoke, or even increasing the DPS with a normal attack.

Not to mention that putting everything in an automatic menu takes away the fun/challenge entirely from the battle. You plan how it goes once. That's about it for BRs.

You're totally wrong, there's no way you could do the same damage without using BR, even if all the people are spamming, also because the stamina system prevents you from doing it. Actually the fact that you are stuck during BR is great also because it lets you recharge your stamina gauge.
The increased damage for the WS during BR compensates by far the fact that you stop DPS for a short time.

And the automatic menu doesn't take away the challenge, you still have to pay attention, you can't just throw in you skill there has to be an order, if you fail in that order the mob won't take the debuff and all of the skills after your one won't be buffed.
In exemple, in order to get the biggest damage buff there can't be two skills of the same class next to each other, if you happen to do it you have to take the skill away from the BR and put it again in the correct order, wich takes time and cause a loss of DPS. Also, there are different type of battle regimen, people usually think in the WS buff BR you can throw in any WS you've got, wrong, if you put in a WS from a class that is not yours you change the BR type into the "cross-class" one, that will cause a big loss in the increase of damage of the next skills. Last thing, the most important, you can get the damage buff even outside of the BR if you perform a skill at the same time it is released; this means that the tanker and the healers can join too and also that those that starts the BR can throw in 2 WS at once if they are trained to timing and cooperation (and to me this resemble a lot the SC/MB system a lot of people are asking for...) and obviousely if they have enough TP, wich adds more strategy making the classes that generate more TP start the BR.
Add the fact that in order to do massive damage everyone has to be properly buffed, this requires a lot of tactic due to the fact that you're stuck after joining: if everyone starts to buff after the Defense Down BR is performed the debuff will get off before the WS BR is release, so you want only the people that close the second one to join the first one, while those that open the second one starts buffing; this thing wouldn't exist if you were able to buff yourself after joining BR.

To get a perfect and fast BR with both defense and magic defense down debuff, all of the people buffed, the people outside BR joining too (and buffed too) is really hard. Knowing all of this things how can you say it isn't challenging?

[Impulse]

personally who cares. You guys are over critical anyway.

You're the one who brought other games into it trying to make an argument.

BRs do lower DPS. Then make it up with extra damage. But does it lower DPS by freezing everyone in a limbo? Yes it does.
Think about it this way:
Lets say 5 players are doing a BR. The first one starts it, then four more stack up. From the first one triggering it, to the fifth one, each player is wasting stamina they could be using to attack.

On the other hand, if there was no queue menu and it was done like skillchains were done, people would still be able to whack the enemy in the meantime. Thats 4 players actively attacking.

You might be great at coordinating with your friends and unleashing BRs, but you can't deny there's a limbo. And that you could be doing something else in the meantime. Like casting a cure or triggering a provoke, or even increasing the DPS with a normal attack.

Not to mention that putting everything in an automatic menu takes away the fun/challenge entirely from the battle. You plan how it goes once. That's about it for BRs.

So you're telling me you'll have the capability to pull off multiple 2k+ damage skills within the matter of 2~4 seconds it should take to stack and execute a BR? Sure, maybe on a Lv1 mob.
Yes, there is indeed a limbo, though one that is so minuscule that it doesn't detract from DPS whatsoever, especially when there is an effect of 3~10x the normal damage following directly after a "limbo" of less than a few seconds.
I don't see where you get the notion that it takes no skill to plan and execute a BR; it clearly does seeing as you've tried before and failed to execute it properly whereas I picked it up right away.

I invite you to re-examine the following images and continue with your asinine statements:

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._3974065_n.jpg
2361 on a higher level mob. (Thanks for the image in the other thread Chard.)
and then:

http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/113092734-4.jpg

Wait, what? A 3k+ attack executed in a matter of seconds? Oh and look at that, a JP player saying BRs are fun? Imagine that.
Again, whatever limbo of a second or two there may be "detracting" from DPS, BR returns that ten-fold granted your group isn't a bit on the slow side and leaves you in queue for more than 3-5 seconds

[Rydin]

BRs do lower DPS. Then make it up with extra damage. But does it lower DPS by freezing everyone in a limbo? Yes it does.
Think about it this way:
Lets say 5 players are doing a BR. The first one starts it, then four more stack up. From the first one triggering it, to the fifth one, each player is wasting stamina they could be using to attack.

On the other hand, if there was no queue menu and it was done like skillchains were done, people would still be able to whack the enemy in the meantime. Thats 4 players actively attacking.

You might be great at coordinating with your friends and unleashing BRs, but you can't deny there's a limbo. And that you could be doing something else in the meantime. Like casting a cure or triggering a provoke, or even increasing the DPS with a normal attack.

Not to mention that putting everything in an automatic menu takes away the fun/challenge entirely from the battle. You plan how it goes once. That's about it for BRs.

Awwww.... As this thread is a direct reply to my "Battle Regimen LOVE Thread," I feel obliged to respond
I obviously wholeheartedly disagree with you (as does the community, it seems) but discussing it here seems futile, as 7 pages of this 9 page thread are full of derailment regarding the nature of opinions and DPS