These forums becoming unbearable?

[Winterclaw]

I don't hate whining and hating, but the one thing I do hate is people with no imagination trying to call the shots.

Since there's nothing new under the sun...









rip off all the good ideas instead of the bad ones.

[gifthorse]

Since there's nothing new under the sun...

rip off all the good ideas instead of the bad ones.

That's terrible advice LOL. Developers should pretend that no other games exist and then develop their dreams from there, only looking to other games as pragmatists to see how certain things were implemented. They shouldn't look to other games first and then blatantly rip off ideas that they were too unimaginative to think of themselves.

The reason for this is because when developers think of an idea - that's if they think of an idea at all - they are usually limited by the technology at their disposal when implementing it. The first MMOs ever released didn't have the tools that todays developers have, and yet Ultima Online (for example) implemented player-made housing, mount-taming, and many other novel features. They had nothing to look to for inspiration, and that helped them make a good game, based solely on their own imaginations. But their ideas were limited to the technology of the era, and so the idead that implementated were limited. Nowadays, developers have the ability to do better. But they will never be able to do better if they look only at the implementation of the idea and then imitate it rather than reimagine it.

[Peregrine]

The reason for this is because when developers think of an idea - that's if they think of an idea at all - they are usually limited by the technology at their disposal when implementing it. The first MMOs ever released didn't have the tools that todays developers have, and yet Ultima Online (for example) implemented player-made housing, mount-taming, and many other novel features. They had nothing to look to for inspiration, and that helped them make a good game, based solely on their own imaginations. But their ideas were limited to the technology of the era, and so the idead that implementated were limited. Nowadays, developers have the ability to do better. But they will never be able to do better if they look only at the implementation of the idea and then imitate it rather than reimagine it.

Ok so that's the idealist soapbox. In reality there is no new technology here. 3d? Oooh. MMO concepts are a limited resource, they are NOT boundless unwritten worlds limited only by imagination. For the concept to fit the market and genre, it has to be addictive and time consuming. Basic human psychology limits what kinds of activities that entails. The best and easiest concepts get tapped quickly, and then after a maintenance phase the field starts to become stale if it's just not that great of an idea to begin with.

The goal is to not revolutionize and revolutionize forever, or die. The goal is to become such a good fundamental idea that people will always want the product. Like Coke. Coke needs no revolution. No innovation. The product has enough inherent value to stay forever as it is.

If MMOs don't, they'll just contract or be perpetually tried and burnt out on by new 14-22 year olds each generation. If you're tired of MMOs, you're probably done with MMOs. Don't be expecting them to change much. WoW, Rift, FFXI...that's about as good as it gets folks. This is the product. It's either good enough or it isn't. It's not a diamond in the rough any more.

[gifthorse]

Ok so that's the idealist soapbox. In reality there is no new technology here. 3d? Oooh. MMO concepts are a limited resource, they are NOT boundless unwritten worlds limited only by imagination. For the concept to fit the market and genre, it has to be addictive and time consuming. Basic human psychology limits what kinds of activities that entails. The best and easiest concepts get tapped quickly, and then after a maintenance phase the field starts to become stale if it's just not that great of an idea to begin with.

The goal is to not revolutionize and revolutionize forever, or die. The goal is to become such a good fundamental idea that people will always want the product. Like Coke. Coke needs no revolution. No innovation. The product has enough inherent value to stay forever as it is.

If MMOs don't, they'll just contract or be perpetually tried and burnt out on by new 14-22 year olds each generation. If you're tired of MMOs, you're probably done with MMOs. Don't be expecting them to change much. WoW, Rift, FFXI...that's about as good as it gets folks. This is the product. It's either good enough or it isn't. It's not a diamond in the rough any more.

And that's the pessimist's view. It's a sad indictment on the genre's potential if WoW and FFXI are the best it can do. Fortunately, we are seeing games like Guild Wars 2 , ArcheAge, and TERA innovating and adding new ideas to the genre.

[Misha]

And that's the pessimist's view. It's a sad indictment on the genre's potential if WoW and FFXI are the best it can do. Fortunately, we are seeing games like Guild Wars 2 , ArcheAge, and TERA innovating and adding new ideas to the genre.

Yep there's a ton you can do with the genre, imagination and resources is all you really need imo Companies like to stick with what they know sells cause money's a big part of development(Not pointing to 14 in any way with this statement LoL). Luckly games like the ones you mentioned are finally being innovative which is what the genre needs at this time!!! I'm a big FF11 fan as much as the next person but times are changing and I don't really want another of the same game, but I DO want alot of what 11 did good with. Which includes but is not limited to - difficulty, class differentiation, story focused pve game, deep strategic battle system, party focused content, pretty much all FF jobs you can think of (Choosing your job was very specific and personal and eventually felt like it was a part of you), which leads to caring about you're character through immersion. List goes on and on, just wish they wouldn't have been so stuck up and moved away from EVERYTHING they knew their customers and fans loved xD

[Winterclaw]

That's terrible advice LOL. Developers should pretend that no other games exist and then develop their dreams from there, only looking to other games as pragmatists to see how certain things were implemented. They shouldn't look to other games first and then blatantly rip off ideas that they were too unimaginative to think of themselves.

The reason for this is because when developers think of an idea - that's if they think of an idea at all - they are usually limited by the technology at their disposal when implementing it. The first MMOs ever released didn't have the tools that todays developers have, and yet Ultima Online (for example) implemented player-made housing, mount-taming, and many other novel features. They had nothing to look to for inspiration, and that helped them make a good game, based solely on their own imaginations. But their ideas were limited to the technology of the era, and so the idead that implementated were limited. Nowadays, developers have the ability to do better. But they will never be able to do better if they look only at the implementation of the idea and then imitate it rather than reimagine it.

In that case rip off UO.

Innovation can be good like the DS or it can be junk like the virtual boy. It's a double edged sword and it can help you or it can hurt you if you decide to innovate in the wrong direction.

Likewise there's times when other games are doing it wrong and times where you shouldn't reinvent the wheel. If you want markets, eve's market system was really nice and it allowed things like trading from one town to the next to be a real profession. If you want a dye system for armor, I've really love what GW2 is doing.

Finally new ideas are difficult to do and make popular. ATITD is an innovative idea for an MMO, but I haven't played it. I've heard of new games being developed to revolutionize MMOs but they tend to either be gutted or turned into vaporware. Also people who are fans of one idea will hate anything that's different than what they are used to. For example, I've suggested on the forums to get rid of skills designed mostly to manage hate: ie to make group combat about kiting and proper positioning... it didn't get much traction. Yet for just about every MMO I can think of, there is a tank class and he's got a skill that draws AI attention. The thing is, those skills were originally developed before sophisticated 3d interfaces, and despite it being nearly 30 years later, a same old cliche design is still in there... which is an example of ripping off a bad idea.

[gifthorse]

In that case rip off UO.

Innovation can be good like the DS or it can be junk like the virtual boy. It's a double edged sword and it can help you or it can hurt you if you decide to innovate in the wrong direction.

Likewise there's times when other games are doing it wrong and times where you shouldn't reinvent the wheel. If you want markets, eve's market system was really nice and it allowed things like trading from one town to the next to be a real profession. If you want a dye system for armor, I've really love what GW2 is doing.

Finally new ideas are difficult to do and make popular. ATITD is an innovative idea for an MMO, but I haven't played it. I've heard of new games being developed to revolutionize MMOs but they tend to either be gutted or turned into vaporware. Also people who are fans of one idea will hate anything that's different than what they are used to. For example, I've suggested on the forums to get rid of skills designed mostly to manage hate: ie to make group combat about kiting and proper positioning... it didn't get much traction. Yet for just about every MMO I can think of, there is a tank class and he's got a skill that draws AI attention. The thing is, those skills were originally developed before sophisticated 3d interfaces, and despite it being nearly 30 years later, a same old cliche design is still in there... which is an example of ripping off a bad idea.

Yeah exactly.

Just look at Final Fantasy games in general. The whole battle system is heavily reliant on stats. But sats don't reflect reality. Stats were originally the best that game designers could do though if they wanted to reflect reality and progression. And yet even though nowadays game developers are able to reflect reality in more reality-reflecting ways, instead they fall back to the stat-based systems. Enmity-controlling skills are a perfect example of that.