SMN - knowing the class (part 1)

[Kevee]

For all you people saying Summoner DPS is fine, go run a parser. When every other DPS class outdoes you by 50% or more, come back and say that again... They don't bring enough utility to the table to justify the lack of DPS.

I'll get right to it when DoT damage is properly logged in the battle log, instead of needing to run a simulation.

Until then, I go by threat meters in-game.

[Vackashken]

Until then, I go by threat meters in-game.

... lol what?

[Kevee]

... lol what?

Specifically for SMN.

If you're consistently 2/3/4/etc and others are consistently lower, then you're pulling more threat=doing more damage.

[Andremal]

This thread may have just assisted me in deciding between Summoner and Scholar. Summoner. One thing though, do you play with a controller. I'm still finding precision targeting difficult with the controller. I love using DOTs especially in Dungeons.

[Vackashken]

Specifically for SMN.

If you're consistently 2/3/4/etc and others are consistently lower, then you're pulling more threat=doing more damage.

Thats a rather large leap. typically what it means is they are managing their hate better.

That is not an indicator of SMN putting up fantastic damage numbers.

[Dixa]

I'll get right to it when DoT damage is properly logged in the battle log, instead of needing to run a simulation.

Until then, I go by threat meters in-game.

the zam parser properly tracks dots.

archers hae two dots of greater potency than ours plus several 140-190 nukes, two of which are off the gcd and can be macro'd to everything else.

our threat becomes higher than the others the second you do any healing whether it by physick to yourself or just a sustain. you can't base anything on threat.

the debuff limit means the class should and would be sat for 24 man raiding.

the lack of on-demand burst means there are encounters where we are not only not ideal, but may hamper the groups progress. that's not an opinion, it's a fact.

[ReverendBaka]

the zam parser properly tracks dots.

archers hae two dots of greater potency than ours plus several 140-190 nukes, two of which are off the gcd and can be macro'd to everything else.

our threat becomes higher than the others the second you do any healing whether it by physick to yourself or just a sustain. you can't base anything on threat.

the debuff limit means the class should and would be sat for 24 man raiding.

the lack of on-demand burst means there are encounters where we are not only not ideal, but may hamper the groups progress. that's not an opinion, it's a fact.

There was an update today, and I haven't been able to log in to the game, but previously the Zam parser did not register Bio2, Bio, or Shadow Flare as damage. It also didn't register Monk's Demolish, and possibly some other spells. Perhaps they have fixed this today, but I have not been able to test that.

[Kevee]

snip

-No parser properly tracks DoTs because they are not in the combat log. At all.

-No they don't. Now, I'm not saying we're stronger than BRDs(they are the top DPS), but Bio II is 350 potency vs Windbite's 320, and Miasma is 320 potency versus Venomous Bite's 310. Then we also have Thunder and Bio which are 240 a piece.

-Why are you doing healing?

-I agree, it is a major issue(even for BRDs) and needs to be looked at.

-The only encounter we are not good for at the moment is Titan, and that's because whoever gets encased--Our DoTs don't affect the shell.

[Dixa]

-No parser properly tracks DoTs because they are not in the combat log. At all.

-No they don't. Now, I'm not saying we're stronger than BRDs(they are the top DPS), but Bio II is 350 potency vs Windbite's 320, and Miasma is 320 potency versus Venomous Bite's 310. Then we also have Thunder and Bio which are 240 a piece.

bio 2 takes 30 seconds and miasma 24 seconds to deliver that potency vs. windbites and venomous bites 18 seconds. really, how can math be that hard for so many?

-Why are you doing healing?

because fail pugs are fail, and because i'd rather throw out a sustain than try to resummon my pet mid battle. i have not gotten around to levelling thm up to quick cast yet due to the damned login issues

[Kevee]

bio 2 takes 30 seconds and miasma 24 seconds to deliver that potency vs. windbites and venomous bites 18 seconds. really, how can math be that hard for so many?

Really, how can math be that hard? Bio II and Miasma will do more damage/GCD but less DPS/GCD.

because fail pugs are fail, and because i'd rather throw out a sustain than try to resummon my pet mid battle. i have not gotten around to levelling thm up to quick cast yet due to the damned login issues

I agree, but proper positioning greatly limits when, or if, you need to heal your pet.


I hit my daily limit, so:

dmg per gcd has little meaning when a 30 second dot does ultimately less damage than an 18 second dot, especially when you have to hard-cast that 30 and 24 second dot while the two 18 second dots are done entirely on the move.

It doesn't do less damage.

It has a higher potency. It does more damage.

It does less DPS.

Something else to note:

Just found a bug during AV, or what I hope is a bug. When you Contagion your current target and Bane to spread the higher DoT timers around, if the 15% chance to reset the DoT timer procs, then it will reset to the lower timer.

this is where simple math is failing you. it does less damage.

bio 2 does 350 potency in 30 seconds. windbite does 320 in 18 seconds.

in 30 seconds, windbite does 533 potency

in 30 seconds, misma does 387 potency

in 30 seconds, venomous bite does 516 potency.

summoner dots are less damage over time and less dps over time. which is a dumb thing to say - given the same amount of time, the ability with the higher dps does the most damage. basic, basic math.

math. it's what's for dinner.

1 GCD: Bio II - 350 Potency
1 GCD: Windbite - 320 Potency

For 1 GCD you're doing more damage and less DPS. If you want to add in a second GCD worth of skills(or 12s worth of Ruin) then add it in.

They are more damage/GCD and less DPS/GCD. This is important because we don't need to apply them as much, which lowers your DPS every time you need to re-apply the DoT.

And why this is important? This means every 18s we have an "extra" GCD, as compared to BRD, where we're not applying a DoT. The DoT is still functioning, and it lets us do other things, potentially the superior thunder/bio/miasma II(aoe), or even Ruin II + off GCD skill instead.


Again, I'm NOT saying SMN is stronger than BRD. It's not, but you're not getting why Bio II is more damage than Windbite. For a single GCD, it does more damage and less DPS. And that's important, because of the things I said above.

Edit: And not to mention RS benefits longer DoTs more, of which we can extend our DoT timers beyond the base.