NPC Vendors and the Economy

[Zuellni]

Hello everyone,

I know that battle and other aspects that make the game more enjoyable are a priority right now so I understand this is probably not even in the ball park of the dev's or rep's range of priorities but I've had this idea kicking around in my head for quite some time and I thought I'd share it and perhaps gather some new ideas that may go with it.

Now, I tend to sell off a lot of materials and items that may be useful to others to NPC vendors due to inventory constraints and that has always bugged me. But what if, when you sell an item to an NPC that item doesn't just disappear into the void of game code. What if that item is in turn sold to an NPC somewhere that sells that specific category of item to other players at an "NPC level" price. I think this would be an interesting way to have another competing market to control or balance the player-based market.

I think it could work in some way like the following:

I sell 1 Decorated Silver Sceptre to a foodstuffs NPC in Ul'dah. Obviously a grocer wouldn't sell a Thaumaturge weapon as part of his wares so the game could then move this item to the proper NPC in the city.

So the above would result in the magic items and weapons NPC having 1 x Decorated Silver Sceptre in stock available for players to purchase.

If I sold 2 of them, the magic items NPC would then have 2 for sale before the item is taken off the list.


But how would pricing go? I think it'd be interesting if the pricing by default is driven by it's rarity in the player market but can be set by the devs to fight inflation if needed.

For example if there were 50 of the above sceptres for sale in the player markets, then the item is pretty common. The NPC would sell at the higher of either, the average price of all the sceptres in the player market or at the price floor (lower limit) for that item set by the devs.

However if the sceptre was a rarity in the player markets, the NPC would then set the price at the higher of either, the price roof (upper limit) of the item, or the average of the few sceptres in the player market.

In this way, players will have an indication of what items are more rare and possibly more profitable to craft. As well as a reason to price their items more competitively. Best of all, items sold to NPCs would no longer be a waste since they will be made available for purchase to players despite being at a higher price than what they may find if they took the time to search the wards.

I'm sure can tell that I'm no economist nor programmer, so I don't know how difficult or how plausible this may be to implement. Perhaps some of you with more knowledge in these areas have some better ways to make the NPC markets more diverse and interactive? Perhaps a similar system is already in another game?

Please share your thoughts!

[AngryNixon]

Curious suggestion. I also don't know how difficult this would be to implement but I wager it's not exactly a cake walk.

The other benefit to this is that all that crap you liquidate like low level crafting mats would go to NPCs to sell so people can buy some cheap mats from somewhere at least, provided it wasn't one of the things NPCs sold already. Also those NPC sold items would act as additional gil sinks which isn't a bad idea.

The only thing I'd add is that I'd hope that the NPC prices, although they might be slightly higher than a player would charge, wouldn't be absurdly high so as to make it unreasonable that any rational person would use the NPC vendors instead of a player, or simply foregoing the purchase altogether because nobody is selling it and the NPC is a rip off. That kind of negates the whole thing.

A slightly related example on the subject of NPC prices is the pricing the repair NPC uses. I'd rather walk around with 0% gear than giving that guy a dime for the price he charges to not even do a full and proper job of it.

[tymora]

This will mean that SE will need to implement some form of price control on all items in the game which I don't think is in their roadmap at all.

[AngryNixon]

This will mean that SE will need to implement some form of price control on all items in the game which I don't think is in their roadmap at all.

Why do you say that ?

[tymora]

I believe it is their idea to allow and encourage a free economy rather than one with SE-controlled prices.
They only do that for certain items (current NPC stock) to push the economy along in the starting stages and to keep it going for lower ranks.

[tymora]

If I put a cap on the pricing of all the items, I wonder how many people I will piss off. You'll see all the "where's my free economy" posts then.

"I'd hope that the NPC prices, although they might be slightly higher than a player would charge, wouldn't be absurdly high"

They won't have a good way to decide this. What is reasonable today may not be reasonable say next year. They would have to spend time adjusting prices all the time - not a good way to spend developer time.

Let the players have free reign - Less problems.

[InuraBera]

I actually have written out an idea similiar to this, and since this thread already exists I shall post it in here. The main difference between our two suggestions is that I probably wouldn't put 'finished' items such as Weapons and Armour on the NPCs, it would mainly be for helping move parts and raw materials that are either sold so much that they have a pretty baseline worth anyway or items that are almost impossible to sell because few people use it, but few people may use it because they can't find it to buy. I'd still intend for the Market Wards to be around, or an Auction House where it added.

"Currently in the game, the Market Wards are working to a fairly decent capacity. It is possible, despite the limitations on the Retainers, to buy and sell goods. However, while in the main it is a simple thing to buy and sell finished items, for example; weapons, tools and armour, it is more difficult for both buyers and sellers to move items that are sold in bulk.

For example, this would include items such as Fruits and Vegetables, Ores, and others such as Fletchings and the like. Basically any item that stacks to a great extent (stacks of 99 and the like).

My solution to this would be the creation of a venue for these particular items that involved selling to an NPC, with the price that you pay, or receive changing based on how much of that item is available for sale at the time.

Many of you may recognise this system from Guild Wars (or at least a few years back - not sure of the system now) where the prices for Raw Materials was based on player demand in relation to the quantity of items available for sale. It is also probably present in others, however I have not played others within which I recognise this. A friend who proof read this mentions that this is similiar to the system used in Lord of the Rings Online for particular items also.

The prices would be different in each City-State (linked to the volume available), to make it possibly worth peoples time moving between the City-States looking for the best deal to make money, or to purchase the items at a reduced price. It would be my intention that items never sold for less than they currently do to an NPC vendor, but with that being the baseline should the market be saturated by the item.

My main reasoning for this is that no matter how many spaces we have available for sale, or an Auction House, or whatever it may be, the actual ability to sell items such as Iron Acorns and the like is pretty low - this may be because they are not often needed, or it could be because they are not sold, a vicious circle.

With this, crafters and gatherers would be able to sell their items for a decent price with the knowledge that others could then buy the item from the NPC 'stock' without having to worry too much about actually shifting the product. It also gives crafters reason to sell items not so often found in the market as they would make more money for them than items which are in high supply. It also means that items that I quite often gather (for example Sun Lemons) but am not able to sell with great success and thus vendor could still be put in circulation for others such as Culinarians who require them.

As to the highest value, or where these people should be - that isn't part of my plan. This is just the overall idea I had, so any comments or ideas for improvement are welcome! I should also note, that I am neither against the current system or an Auction House being involved as well, but this would mainly be for items bought and sold in bulk, that can be difficult to shift otherwise, despite being the mainstay of a lot of crafting."

[Zuellni]

It's great to hear that similar systems are implemented in other games InuraBera, thank you for your detailed write-up. I especially like the idea that the system be implemented only for materials and parts since those types of items are exactly the ones that caused me concern. However, I think it would be beneficial to include at least some of the more common armours and equipment to accommodate lower ranked or new players as well as to drive a demand of more types of items from crafters. But again, I think having a market like this even for just materials and parts would be great since at least then new players will have the materials necessary to craft their own items available to them.

About the issues of free market raised by Tymora, I too agree that it would be easier on the devs if players set and influence the prices, however, with a player only market compounded by the 10 bazaar slot limit, most of the items you'll find in the market wards will be high value items like NM drop items. This doesn't help solve the problem of distributing materials and low level items that may not net as much gil if sold in the market wards. I also believe that there is indeed a way for the devs to judge the range of an item's cost and what prices would be ridiculous. We do get paid to do behest, leves and sidequests, the devs will simply need to ask themselves, "how many behest should i have to do to be able to afford a maple longbow?" or similar questions along those lines. This is not to say that I think everything should be controlled by the devs, I think rare or NM drop type high-value items should be uncontrolled and free for players to set the value just not items such as a walnut wand or an oak mask.

On a more unrelated note, I wonder if economists would be interested in collaborating with MMORPGs to fine-tune in-game economies? I would imagine MMORPG worlds would be a treasure trove of data as well as a great controllable environment to test and experiment with economic theories.

[Jinko]

Yea I've had a similar idea to this before, the idea of stocking NPC retailers is a good one IMO and would create a completely stable economy, it also falls into the concept of adventures going out gathering items and supplying their city.

Good idea that will most likely never be implemented at least not by SE.