[dev 1026] Petition against proposed claim system and portions of new party system.

[Kazimir]

I would also be opposed to this system. But I don't see where anyone is suggesting that it will be implemented. It looks to me like Yoshi-P has actually said it's not going to happen.

The whole point of "instanced" content -- which is what it looks like Yoshi-P is actually suggesting -- is that only one party can be in an instance. When I enter an instance, I've got the whole world -- and all the mobs in it -- to myself. So, by definition, multiple parties cannot claim the same mob.

Am I misunderstanding something?

They didn't say it will be implemented. As far as I know it's something under consideration. The point of the thread is to express dislike/favor for the system he's mentioned and to give our opinions about it.

As far as suggesting one party can be in an instance, that's not what I'm referring too. It's about multiple parties in the open world fighting open world NM's/mobs. I would assume if they even allow multiple parties into a single instance that it will be for parties/groups that are wanting to do the dungeon together.

From the poll:

9. If the current target claiming system were done away with, would you be in favor of a system that rewards skill, experience, and loot only to the party that first deals damage to an enemy? Or would you be in favor of skill, experience, and loot being distributed amongst all parties that contributed to an enemy's defeat?

Also, from your proposed system:As I understand it, the reason the FFXIV team didn't do this was because it was frequently exploited in FFXI. I could run into a lower level area and use an AoE spell to claim every mob in the area. That would leave no mobs for the lower level members to fight.

I don't personally know of anyone who ran into a low level area and claimed every mob aside for the farming of Yagudo necklaces. Even in those areas, very few people would have leveled there.

And it's also used as an exploit for power leveling. Say you've got a party of seven level 1s and a level 50. The level 50 runs through and kites every mob in a low level area, then quickly wipes them out with a single AoE spell. In FFXIV, SP/XP is determined for each player individually. So the fact that there's a level 50 in your party doesn't hurt your SP/XP. The seven level 1s all the get the benefit of having killed every mob in the area, despite having done nothing. Here's an example of it being done in FFXI.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/par...p-exploit.html

You wouldn't be able to exploit it if a level gap that far apart would in turn make it so the level 1's do not get any exp. It's a simple fix.

The exploit that was in XI would not be able to be replicated in XIV. That was done with SMN 2 hours that did a bunch of dmg. There is no such ability capable of doing that in XIV.

[Jinko]

It seems a bit silly to petition something that hasn't been added to the game yet.

If they plan to make the majority of content instanced based I see very few problems arising outside of an option for leaders to change looting option, such as a roll for loot window or leader distribution.

I'm not very keen on roaming NM's anyway so anything which will force them into an instance would be fine with me lol.

Your suggestion has some cons which you haven't put up, the main one is that a party can tag a monster and keep it for his/her party, ie sleeping in FF11.

[VydarrTyr]

They didn't say it will be implemented. As far as I know it's something under consideration. The point of the thread is to express dislike/favor for the system he's mentioned and to give our opinions about it.

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't personally know of anyone who ran into a low level area and claimed every mob aside for the farming of Yagudo necklaces. Even in those areas, very few people would have leveled there.

Well, that video indicates that it happened. And SE apparently thought it happened enough that it needed to be addressed in XIV. So, your personal experiences aside, it apparently did happen enough to be a concern.

And just saying that you didn't experience it doesn't address the issue of what to do if it does happen. If I can claim multiple mobs, then the competition in grinding areas is going to increase. It's a small step from grinding to griefing.

And if my party can claim multiple mobs, then instead of soloing, 7 of my buddies and I can party up and go grind on mobs that we'd otherwise solo. Each of us can grab a coblyn and fight it solo. Only instead of just getting SP/XP from one at a time, I get the benefit of the coblyn I killed solo, and the other 7 coblyns my party members killed solo.

My point isn't that it's necessarily a bad system. It's just that there are definite downsides, too. And despite the fact that you said you'd be adding "cons" to your original post, I notice you haven't added any yet.

You wouldn't be able to exploit it if a level gap that far apart would in turn make it so the level 1's do not get any exp. It's a simple fix.

That's not really a simple fix. You'd have to change the SP/XP and party systems. And where do you set the "level gap" limit? Set it too low and you're preventing people from partying together. Set it too high and it can be exploited.

The exploit that was in XI would not be able to be replicated in XIV. That was done with SMN 2 hours that did a bunch of dmg. There is no such ability capable of doing that in XIV.

Why can't it be done in XIV? If I can claim 30 marmots, a level 50 Thm can one-shot them all with an AoE spell. I don't need a 2 hour ability to do it.

[Kazimir]

You suggestion has some cons which you haven't put up, the main one is that a party can tag a monster and keep it for his/her party, ie sleeping in FF11.

How is that a con? It's just crowd control. Setting up for another kill while exp grinding isn't a bad thing. Unless you mean for NM's, in which case a rage timer handles that.

Thanks for the clarification.
Well, that video indicates that it happened. And SE apparently thought it happened enough that it needed to be addressed in XIV. So, your personal experiences aside, it apparently did happen enough to be a concern.

That was a video of an exploit for parties in 1 spot out of the entire game. That does not mean it is a big issue. Doing an exploit like that wouldn't even be possible in this game. For one, mobs return to their spot after a certain distance. Secondly, it's done using a powerful 2 hour which isn't in this game.

And just saying that you didn't experience it doesn't address the issue of what to do if it does happen. If I can claim multiple mobs, then the competition in grinding areas is going to increase. It's a small step from grinding to griefing.

People grinding would hopefully not be able to hold anymore than 1 other mob besides the one they are fighting due to mobs being more difficult. If that would be possible in the future then clearly combat would still be way too easy. Also guildleves are a bigger focus than grinding so competition wouldn't be much of an issue either.

And if my party can claim multiple mobs, then instead of soloing, 7 of my buddies and I can party up and go grind on mobs that we'd otherwise solo. Each of us can grab a coblyn and fight it solo. Only instead of just getting SP/XP from one at a time, I get the benefit of the coblyn I killed solo, and the other 7 coblyns my party members killed solo.

If you fight things at such a low rank you can solo them, then SP should be nerfed if you're in a group. If you can get 150 SP from a green mob solo then it would only make sense to get a drastic reduction of SP if you're in a group. The purpose of grinding in a group is to kill things you wouldn't otherwise be able to solo so you can get more SP. As it stands now you can solo harder things, but once they change combat to make it more engaging that shouldn't be possible.

That's not really a simple fix. You'd have to change the SP/XP and party systems. And where do you set the "level gap" limit? Set it too low and you're preventing people from partying together. Set it too high and it can be exploited

The system was already set up in FFXI, they don't have to look far for an example. With the 8 member party limit coming up it shouldn't be too hard to find people of an appropriate level either.

Why can't it be done in XIV? If I can claim 30 marmots, a level 50 Thm can one-shot them all with an AoE spell. I don't need a 2 hour ability to do it.

Again, that wouldn't be possible if they make it so you can't get SP in groups with large rank gaps.

[Boricua]

OP, does your third proposal incorporate or alter the following? The current claiming system does not allow unclaimed mobs to grant SP/XP (that only you and your party attacked) while having another claimed (red). This is a common and most annoying problem that I come across in a party setup doing leves. Often there are four mobs grouped closely, all four aggro, you claim one (they come as pairs of two), so there are now 2/4 red mobs, someone in the party will occasionally either damage 50% of a mob resulting in 50% SP/XP awarded or kill it outright while having at least one other red/claimed mob and results in no SP/XP gain. I don't know if this is in place to prevent running entire zones for an AoE mana burn or whatnot, but at the very least its a pain having had your party alone deal all damage and never have it touched by an outsider and gain only a rat skin for it.

[Kazimir]

OP, does your third proposal incorporate or alter the following? The current claiming system does not allow unclaimed mobs to grant SP/XP (that only you and your party attacked) while having another claimed (red). This is a common and most annoying problem that I come across in a party setup doing leves. Often there are four mobs grouped closely, all four aggro, you claim one (they come as pairs of two), so there are now 2/4 red mobs, someone in the party will occasionally either damage 50% of a mob resulting in 50% SP/XP awarded or kill it outright while having at least one other red/claimed mob and results in no SP/XP gain. I don't know if this is in place to prevent running entire zones for an AoE mana burn or whatnot, but at the very least its a pain having had your party alone deal all damage and never have it touched by an outsider and gain only a rat skin for it.

Yes with the system you would be able to claim all the aggroed mobs, which if you were able to kill them would grant you all SP/exp from them. Hopefully though the changes to make combat more "engaging" would entail that it would be difficult to beat 4 appropriately leveled mobs at once.

[Boricua]

Yes with the system you would be able to claim all the aggroed mobs, which if you were able to kill them would grant you all SP/exp from them. Hopefully though the changes to make combat more "engaging" would entail that it would be difficult to beat 4 appropriately leveled mobs at once.

Yeah I agree, in the current state I feel most mobs in x1 star R40 levequest die in 2-3 AoEs as an R38 con give or take resists, which to me is too easy but may be an opinion of my own.

The only change I can see is that one party/player should only be able to have one mob (or one set of mobs, if the mobs are partied in a pair as in leves) claimed at any given time and the unclaimed yellow mobs remain that way. This allows a party on the same leve to focus on the claimed pair first and therefore focus damage into lowering the number of crowd against the party.

Outside of a leve mobs should act the same way. This will help prevent higher level players from 'stealing' lower leveled mobs that could be the target of another party. Keeping the majority of acted upon mobs yellow prevents dominance from others who would just tag and perhaps only DoT kill to aggravate others, or even just to ensure all drops from an area off a mob family (yag necklaces for those who recall). Again these yellow mobs should act in such a manner that if defeated and not interacted by anyone but one player/party the receive full sp/xp/drops. But if these yellow mobs are acted on by another player/party then they can be claimed by that player/party (with sufficient enmity) and will receive a diminished amount of XP/SP dependent on mob HP% and full drops if the mob remained claimed up until 0%. And finally imagine a mob being bounced around between seperate players/parties (i.e. unclaimed > claimed > unclaimed). The final claiming party should get the XP/SP % of when the last claim occurred up until death, along with all its drops.

[Naqaj]

Yes with the system you would be able to claim all the aggroed mobs, which if you were able to kill them would grant you all SP/exp from them. Hopefully though the changes to make combat more "engaging" would entail that it would be difficult to beat 4 appropriately leveled mobs at once.

That would be great. Traditionally the MMO designs often encouraged killing large quantities of weak monsters over killing fewer, stronger ones. Would be nice to see that change.

[Roaran]

I think many of the OP's points are moot.

In the new system, linkshells can still operate together with little or no change in the open world. They just work together from separate parties. Same chance of loot and SP.

Now when there are multiple Linkshells fighting over say Dodore, it is uncertain whether all parties will have their own separate chances of getting drops (meaning each group could potentially get their drops from one kill) or they all share a chance to get the one drop and only one party gets it. This, however, still changes nothing except offering everyone an opportunity to participate in the fight instead of having claim wars and watching groups kill. So in EITHER situation I see the new party and claim system better.

For this very reason it does not force the developers into instanced content. But its obvious they intend to make this their primary goal for content. However this still does not change much. If you had 60 people in a linkshell and they were all able to form a 60 man party to fight something. Just like any other game WoW or FFXI as well, all you do is divide the groups and send them into their own instance.

[Azurewrath]

Honestly, I agree. A little bit of instanced stuff is okay. That way dungeons can be interesting. Pieces of ground falling behind you so you're stuck moving forward so you have to think before you move on, and move with your whole party, communicate, coordinate, etc (In non instance this would trap everyone else in other groups behind).

Other than stuff like that, and a few instances (Dynamis style, or even like other MMO instances, this wouild be a cool addition, but shouldn't be the main bulk of content like in most other MMOs)

I don't like too much instanced content. I play MMOs to play with others. Not just my party either. It's the thrill of seeing random people I've never met before run past, to make the world feel more alive. Conversations I have no part in happening on the side. In real life, the world doesn't revolve around you, and neither should it in an MMO (Instances do)

I want to see people who arent as experienced as me fail, or prevail, and I want to see people more experienced than me fail and prevail. Something to strive for.

With instances, you don't get to go in with these advanced groups, you know they go in, win it using the same strategy as always, then pop out and you never get to see them in actions.

I'm totally for more open world content.