Materia System

[ZephyrAM]

No one forced you to farm in XI tho to make money nor craft it was all up to you the player

I think, though, that the point is everyone in XIV can make money in different ways, depending on how they choose to do it. They don't have to just take part in the ridiculous NM farming that existed there in order to actively participate in the buying/selling of the economy.

There should never just be one way to do much of anything in a good MMO, and the fact that crafting, gathering, 'and' combat classes can all perform this aspect in their own different way is a good thing.

[Physic]

It was 100 by the NA release, and your server was not the single exception to the disparity between <rare material> → NQ <rare material synth>, so either you're just remembering it wrong, or you're lying to save face. Sorry I have to come off like a dbag and say it like that, but it is what it is.

i find it hard to believe it was 100 by NA release when the level cap wasnt even 75, and looks like all the formulas for veteran are level 71+ gears. but even if it was for some reason, realize that many people wouldnt even have gotten that high. Also realize that some servers came out months after the initial release. realize that economies on different servers were totally different for good reason. And yes the high end crafters on my server were bastards/geniuses who made sure they made profit for a long time.


and research proves me right:

im going to come off like a douchebag here, and im not that upset about it but

http://www.zam.com/wiki/December_16%...tes_%28FFXI%29

"Item Updates

The skill cap for synthesis skills has been raised to 100 (Veteran).

New synthesis recipes have been added for each type of skill."

you are wrong

the game came out in october, the cap was raise in december patch along with the level cap increase to 75. gooday sir I SAID GOODAY

[Duelle]

I think, though, that the point is everyone in XIV can make money in different ways, depending on how they choose to do it. They don't have to just take part in the ridiculous NM farming that existed there in order to actively participate in the buying/selling of the economy.

There should never just be one way to do much of anything in a good MMO, and the fact that crafting, gathering, 'and' combat classes can all perform this aspect in their own different way is a good thing.

This.

XI's issue was that outside of farming mobs for hours, crafting for hours to skill up then pray your synth is an HQ, staying around an area waiting for NMs to pop and camping the crafting guild shops to buy out their inventory to resell said inventory in the AH at higher prices, there wasn't much one could do to earn money. The mistake with leves is that they were semi-sold as a focus point of the game, whereas I see it as a tiny part of a much bigger world. Not to mention it is backed up by game lore, for whatever that is worth.

[Peregrine]

It'd help to prove your points a lot better if you weren't wrong so often.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=183492

Also, I remember not too long ago you posted in a thread about lolmarauder, and when you were trying to prove your point that marauder is awful (which I do agree with, it is a terrible class right now in comparison to literally every other) you said a few things that were just completely inaccurate. The main one being that MRD, PUG, and LNC "parse within 3% of each other" which is so insanely wrong. Yes, MRD is below the other 2 (and wayyy below ARC), but saying that they're all pretty much as bad as one another.

The pecking order goes like this: ARC, LNC: these two are actually pretty close when you factor in party-wide Surge drain damage, which obviously procs even when everyone is at 100% HP, and if we're talking Comrade in Arms II TP boosts, the damage would be pretty hard to parse for LNC, which is why I think it's a heavily underrated class.

Let's say, on raptors (no point in even discussing NMs since literally ever NM in the game is solable - yes, even Buffalo and Uraeus) Speed Surge II drains for about 30~45 a hit on normal attacks, and significantly more on BR'd WS's. So, let's say about 10 normal hits occur between everyone in the PT. That's 300 damage at minimum being caused by Surge. Then, you have the WS's where it can drain for 90~200 ⅹ 5 DDs we're up to 1,300 damage just from Surge. That's more than a buffed multishot by a bit. Then factor in Comrade II, where people go to 1,000~2,000 TP in a matter of 2 attacks (crazy right?) and the damage really can't even be calculated since it's as if you're super-hasting the whole PT into insane TP figures.

I've done so many different raptor setups now that I've run into times where we've had 5 LNC, 1 healer, and also 5 ARC, 1 Healer and the speed was exactly the same, with crazy figures on both sides.

I know this was a bit off topic, but if you're going to post so aggressively, you would do well to get your facts completely right so as not to embarrass yourself in the least.

Uh no one cares you're butthurt about being given the 9th degree by me in another topic. if you want to whine some more about the meleeing pecking order, put an attention to me in a thread and maybe I'll come talk to you.

As for how "I'm wrong" that 10 gathering does nothing, come back and talk when that gatherer is rank 48. I'm not paying 10 million gil to hit 7 times instead of 6 times as a piddlyding grinding miner. Level up. There. Now you can hit 7 times, and that 10 million gil you just spent doensn't let you hit 8.

Sowwwwwy.

[Peregrine]

For the most part, this post goes to you Peregrine. Of course, it goes to anyone who applies anyhow.

OK OK, this is borderline insane. I had to freakin' jump a bunch of post because the monopoly paranoia is just... I may have to google a word for super-incredibly-crazy-ass-huge. Or make one. Hugegantic. Maybe Hugegantuous.

Remember, and by Christ, this is just an example because most will probably be familiar with it, FFXI? Where crafters had some serious power? End game event (up to a point in history) used to simply drop coveted rare materials that were then sold to crafters, who made the best gear there was, WHO YOU BOUGHT IT FROM. The game did not flop because of this, for Christ's sake.

We do not have ONE "company" called "The One Crafting Guy", and you are ENTIRELY disregarding supply and demand. Hell, and affordability. I sell the materials for MANY kinds of "materias", not the ONE I want to buy, to multiple crafters. I proceed to also sell a LOT of my unrelated spoils, hides, meats, etc. I sell a buttload of crystals and shards to crafters that are just burning through all of this stuff just to skillup (and break, hah!). THEN I return, and I buy that ONE "materia" I want from ONE crafter, who I will chose if the price is justifiable in my eyes. If it's "too high" because he apparently wears a monocle the way you depict them, I freakin' walk away and go the next crafter until I find a cheaper one, because sooner or later, expensive things have to be marked down due to either not being affordable or competition. Too expensive still? Keep on creating materials out of your endless supply (materials from farming, this is the magic part, supplies are infinite) and keep selling, until you just buy it. Like we have always done.

Man, do you know how many Behemoth were killed for hides? And how many of their beautiful products were bought? You can rest assured, crafters charged you for the materials' worth on the end products, and we payed them (I just did Alchemy there, so I had to), and the world didn't torn asunder due to some insane monopoly theory.

Your goal as a battler is not to have an equal part on the economy! It's to get to just afford (key word, afford, not make an insane equal profit, why would I craft then?) that new piece of gear that will have you kicking dragon buttchops with pride!

Also: Option B is getting the materials, all of them, and have a single guy do all the work for me, for a small fee rather than have him buy the materials entirely from me so I have to pay it back, plus interest (in the end it's pretty much equal, but people are generally gentler, even giving, with commissions). Why the hell are you selling the "materia" components for "materia" you want anyways? You sell what's pretty much of no concern for you, you are making a profit in that case.

I think the three points you need to reevaluate are:
-The economy is not a three-persons game, you do not make the sales to the same person you buy: This is important, it has ramifications.
-There is no reason in this planet why a person that's entirely a fighter should have an even close to equal monetary gain (not to mention you are disregarding how attaining the end product is ALSO a gain, and an important one! Gains and costs aren't all measured in money, even as a complete salesman/crafter, disregarding time, among other things,is a horrible mistake), when you are considering a single product: Fighters have many other areas from where to gain, to invest in one. And even if it were an economy based on a single product and three persons, you'd be selling the "same crafter" materials for 10 "materias", buying one. See how it rolls? Who's losing now, in my micro-scope (similar in scale to yours, honestly) economy?
-Entirely (big, big mistake here) disregarding supply and demand.



And after all is said and done, who gives a rat's ass about who makes money in a game where money is over-flowing out of everyone's pocket? They screwed the pooch real bad the moment they made money appear out of nowhere in copious amounts with just leves. Did they learn nothing out of the common MMO economy with "Trash Loot" compared to FFXI's "Everything is useful and money is not given for free everywhere"?

You've already been addressed twice.
Crafting. Gathering. Battling. They can all be taken as collective entities, where the sum of the power of all individual members collectively give the discipline one large economic weight.

And you simply are not capable of understanding that concept given that this is the third time now that I've had to explain it that individuals don't matter, that the entire system would give too much power to the entire crafting discipline.

You won't get it. Doesn't matter really. I'm sure the devs would if they ever saw the argument.

[LateReg]

i find it hard to believe it was 100 by NA release when the level cap wasnt even 75, and looks like all the formulas for veteran are level 71+ gears. but even if it was for some reason, realize that many people wouldnt even have gotten that high. Also realize that some servers came out months after the initial release. realize that economies on different servers were totally different for good reason. And yes the high end crafters on my server were bastards/geniuses who made sure they made profit for a long time.


and research proves me right:

im going to come off like a douchebag here, and im not that upset about it but

http://www.zam.com/wiki/December_16%...tes_%28FFXI%29

"Item Updates

The skill cap for synthesis skills has been raised to 100 (Veteran).

New synthesis recipes have been added for each type of skill."

you are wrong

the game came out in october, the cap was raise in december patch along with the level cap increase to 75. gooday sir I SAID GOODAY

1) what's a "gooday"?

2) by NA release I don't necessarily mean as soon as the game came out in NA, I meant within ~3 months
The cap was was 75 before a majority of NA players even knew the cap was 70.

3) This one's gonna kill you, but Serket didn't even exist until early '03 if I remember correctly, and when it came out, it was unkillable (due to the current cap being either 60 or 65), and to top it off, even when it became killable, it was discovered that many of the HNMs that were popular in early '04 onward didn't even have drops! How sweet is that? This was an ordeal that lasted for quite some time as I remember (at least 2~3 months). So I'd say there were a good amount of people who could craft Harness back then when it first became craftable, and claws could actually be had.

Don't sit there and try to convince me that your server was the single exception to everyone else's where there was fairly large competition in crafting (especially in one like Bone which was cheap).

So, you are wrong, and "gooday" to you...

[Physic]

1) what's a "gooday"?

2) by NA release I don't necessarily mean as soon as the game came out in NA, I meant within ~3 months
The cap was was 75 before a majority of NA players even knew the cap was 70.

3) This one's gonna kill you, but Serket didn't even exist until early '03 if I remember correctly, and when it came out, it was unkillable (due to the current cap being either 60 or 65), and to top it off, even when it became killable, it was discovered that many of the HNMs that were popular in early '04 onward didn't even have drops! How sweet is that? This was an ordeal that lasted for quite some time as I remember (at least 2~3 months). So I'd say there were a good amount of people who could craft Harness back then when it first became craftable, and claws could actually be had.

Don't sit there and try to convince me that your server was the single exception to everyone else's where there was fairly large competition in crafting (especially in one like Bone which was cheap).

So, you are wrong, and "gooday" to you...

You are funny
NA release = 3 months after its release? EL OH EL

the time of serket coming out is completely irrelevant to this since HE WAS IN GAME ON NA RELEASE WHEN LEVEL CAP WAS 70 (and by na release, i mean you know what was in game when it was released to NA)(and he dropped Sclaw at that time)

I dont know how many crafters thier were, or how many bonecrafters all i can tell you is
vclaw costed less than sharness early on when i was that level. In fact, on my server, it wasnt until the NA started leveling up crafts that people started selling items at a loss, they had no reason to sell at a loss, especially an item like sharness that was top tier gear. and as hard to HQ with a level 90 cap as anything in the game, at a time when there was a large influx of players who wanted it, Massive ammounts of NA people/jp people leveling up, and a limited supply of vclaws.

how long do you think it takes a new charachter who knows little about the world to level up a craft? to level up a job? did you know that new servers were added as much as 1 month before NA release? do you really think every server had the same economy, when even now after years they dont?

Nevermind you re just trying to save face at this point, you were wrong and its hard to adjust. I have trouble even believing what you think happened on your server is correct, with your level cap was 100 statement.

[LateReg]

Uh no one cares you're butthurt about being given the 9th degree by me in another topic. if you want to whine some more about the meleeing pecking order, put an attention to me in a thread and maybe I'll come talk to you.

As for how "I'm wrong" that 10 gathering does nothing, come back and talk when that gatherer is rank 48. I'm not paying 10 million gil to hit 7 times instead of 6 times as a piddlyding grinding miner. Level up. There. Now you can hit 7 times, and that 10 million gil you just spent doensn't let you hit 8.

Sowwwwwy.

What? 10 million gil? You mean Orobon Stew with some cheap NQ gathering gear, and wearing a Coatee instead of a Jerkin?

You don't know enough about the game to talk as much as you do.

[LateReg]

You are funny
NA release = 3 months after its release? EL OH EL

the time of serket coming out is completely irrelevant to this since HE WAS IN GAME ON NA RELEASE WHEN LEVEL CAP WAS 70 (and by na release, i mean you know what was in game when it was released to NA)(and he dropped Sclaw at that time)

I dont know how many crafters thier were, or how many bonecrafters all i can tell you is
vclaw costed less than sharness early on when i was that level. In fact, on my server, it wasnt until the NA started leveling up crafts that people started selling items at a loss, they had no reason to sell at a loss, especially an item like sharness that was top tier gear. and as hard to HQ with a level 90 cap as anything in the game, at a time when there was a large influx of players who wanted it, Massive ammounts of NA people/jp people leveling up, and a limited supply of vclaws.

how long do you think it takes a new charachter who knows little about the world to level up a craft? to level up a job? did you know that new servers were added as much as 1 month before NA release? do you really think every server had the same economy, when even now after years they dont?

Nevermind you re just trying to save face at this point, you were wrong and its hard to adjust. I have trouble even believing what you think happened on your server is correct, with your level cap was 100 statement.

Disregarding rest of your post since you clearly didn't understand mine (for the 3rd time now). He was in the game, yes. Could he be killed at the time? No. Did he drop Claw? No. He didn't have drops months later when he was finally killed (I distinctly remember this), same goes for Cassie and Simorgh. By the time the first Claws went into circulation, there were most definitely multiple 100 Bonecrafters on every server, even the newer ones that were created leading up to the NA release, and the ones after. It took a really long time.

I was playing since the beginning of service period. I still have the old Beta discs and >external< PS2 HDD. I know my shit.

edit: on top of the multiple Bonecrafters being 100, there were probably handfuls of people who could craft it, seeing as I believe it was a level 70ish synth, and there wasn't exactly a database of known people with highly leveled crafts. HQing wasn't even the issue at the time. Again, I'm positive your server was not the exception to any of this.

[Physic]

Disregarding rest of your post since you clearly didn't understand mine (for the 3rd time now). He was in the game, yes. Could he be killed at the time? No. Did he drop Claw? No. He didn't have drops months later when he was finally killed (I distinctly remember this), same goes for Cassie and Simorgh. By the time the first Claws went into circulation, there were most definitely multiple 100 Bonecrafters on every server, even the newer ones that were created leading up to the NA release, and the ones after. It took a really long time.

I was playing since the beginning of service period. I still have the old Beta discs and >external< PS2 HDD. I know my shit.

he was killable at 70, he was soloable at 75. serket is not a king. We 4 manned him with a group level of 71-74.

looking it up, serket came out in december 02, whatever happened in jp time i have no idea but 10 months later on NA release he was beatable and dropped the claw. months after 12/19/02 is still before 10 months. going by my sources, he was beatable with an alliance of level 60 players, his biggest issue was aoe killing random people on higher floors.

There was not multiple level 100 bonecrafters because there was not even an option to be a level 100 bonecrafter. Maybe you r confusing the time when they added a bcnm that dropped vclaw with the increase in available vclaws, and high number of bonecrafters. whatever the case, your wrong.

And to bring it back to the point,
Crafters dont need to profit multiple times off of the materia system. And they will profit as much as the system allows them too, so its up to SE to create systems that dont encourage crafters dominating the costs of materia junctioning, when they put in the least work.

materia NPC is the best bet for this, or at least have an option to go to npc, if the crafters werent going to overcharge, that will have no effect on them, if they were, oh wells.