Materia System

[Peregrine]

Isn't it crafters' goal to make money? That's the real reason most people craft, also if you're worried that crafters will have too much money, there just needs to be a gil sink for them. Also if I feel like someone is charging too much, I'll just go to another crafter, there's always someone willing to sell their services for less.

It's industry-wide imbalance. Consider crafters, gatherers, and battlers to be three entities-three corporations.
One corporation gets to charge the others twice for their product. Once then each of the other two wishes to start making their products, and then again when these two have to finish their final products.

That one corporation will own the other two within the end of the fiscal year. So will crafters own gatherers and battlers, as a total entity. Taken as a unit, you can't simply go to another crafter. That crafter inherently benefits from his trade's collective advantage over your trade.

It's about global market balance, not individual observations.

[Wynn]

In this example, you are the person that both sells the glass and makes the house. You can thus charge whatever the hell you please for the glass and they have to pay it.

In a balanced system, you would have to purchase the glass from someone who isn't you.

In this case, crafters get to pay themselves with gatherers' and battlers' money.

No, actually in my example the glass maker is most certainly someone else, otherwise I wouldn't be buying materials at all. I'd be using my own.

A crafter is buying the materia from battle player A's retainer, purchasing the catalyst from harvester player A's retainer, using both to make an enhanced weapon out of their own crafted weapon, and then putting the result up on his retainer, which is then purchased by battle player B.

Plus if player B doesn't like crafter As price, he can go see crafter B or C.

The only way your example is accurate is if said crafter is also a battle class player, and a harvester, and goes to make his own materia/catalysts. And even if that is the case, I fail to see the problem there. It's his loot that he worked to get, same as you or anyone else. They can do what they want with it. Anyone is free to purchase from another retainer that they feel is priced fairer, or make their own.

I mean look at your sig. You have pretty much all three class archetypes leveled to 50. You'll be making everything yourself. So will a lot of people. And if you are that concerned that greedy crafters are going to band together and rape the masses, fight the good fight and undercut their prices. You of all people have the ability to do just that.

I, however, think your fears in this instance are a bit more akin to wearing a tin foil hat.

[Lerris]

In this example, you are the person that both sells the glass and makes the house. You can thus charge whatever the hell you please for the glass and they have to pay it.

In a balanced system, you would have to purchase the glass from someone who isn't you.

In this case, crafters get to pay themselves with gatherers' and battlers' money.

Crafter still has to purchase raw materials/finished gear + materia + catalyst. We're not selling the same sword twice unless we've bought it back.

What is needed is a mechanism where a crafter can join materia to gear while it is in the owner's possession. Something like the current bazaar repairs ( which also need to be improved as mentioned elswhere so that buyers can provide their own repair materials ).

[Peregrine]

IOh so the crafter says he has the best gear, well that doesn't matter because it would still be 100% and the crafter doesn't determine if the materia is HQ, I believe HQ is determined by what the wearer of the weapon/armor does to get the AP to 100%. (At least that is how I read it, maybe I read it wrong).

It's not that crafters will expect a lot of gil for one-inlay synths that anyone their level can do and not fail. It's that they won't do them. They will only be interested in whipping up all the good materia and BLOWING it to hell on chances to combine two of them into a HQ endgame piece so they can charge 24 million gil for it. If battlers raise their prices for that materia, crafters will pay it...and then just mark the final products up even more to cover that cost, saying that battlers should have the gil to afford that since the crafter just paid them a lot of money for that materia.

Crafters will run away with this system. Battlers who aren't lucky enough to get the best materia results won't be able to afford it, because that materia will simply be material spam to some bloatedly rich crafter. They won't be able to inlay one good materia into their weapon.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Peregrine makes the point of:

If the warrior does ALL the work to get the materia why does he have to pay a butt load of gil (making the obvious assumption that crafters will overprice as they already do) to infuse the materia into his new weapon.

AND

Said crafters will be able to craft the items that the warrior buys (that is +1 Crafter -1 Warrior) assuming that most crafters will want all the mats to be provided by the warriors, the warrior purchases the catalyst (that is +1 Gatherer -1 Warrior) now the crafter also has a fee for doing this for the warrior (that is +1 Crafter -1 Warrior) Crafter infuses the materia on the new weapon, rinse and repeat.
All in all you have Crafter+2, Gatherer+1, Warrior-3.

His point is a completely valid; the combat people will loose out in the long run and the Crafting classes will end up controlling the markets without any real need for checks and balances.

[Peregrine]

Crafter still has to purchase raw materials/finished gear + materia + catalyst. We're not selling the same sword twice unless we've bought it back.

And that doesn't matter one bit, because the crafter can turn around and re-charge whoever they sell that materia'd gear to. Again, battlers and gatherers end up paying everything they ever charge crafters, and more.

Crafters have two avenues of profit from this system, and they are the MOST IMPORTANT ONES: the FIRST and the LAST.
You can't START materia unless you buy something from a crafter. HELLO profit.
You can't USE materia unless you get something from a crafter. HELLO profit.

Again, this is absolutely ridiculous. It can't happen.

[Sonic_the_Hedgehog]

Peregrine makes the point of:

If the warrior does ALL the work to get the materia why does he have to pay a butt load of gil (making the obvious assumption that crafters will overprice as they already do) to infuse the materia into his new weapon.

AND

Said crafters will be able to craft the items that the warrior buys (that is +1 Crafter -1 Warrior) assuming that most crafters will want all the mats to be provided by the warriors, the warrior purchases the catalyst (that is +1 Gatherer -1 Warrior) now the crafter also has a fee for doing this for the warrior (that is +1 Crafter -1 Warrior) Crafter infuses the materia on the new weapon, rinse and repeat.
All in all you have Crafter+2, Gatherer+1, Warrior-3.

His point is a completely valid; the combat people will loose out in the long run and the Crafting classes will end up controlling the markets without any real need for checks and balances.

Perhaps, but warriors will be able to get rare/ex gear from NMs or Quests, also you get a ton of gil from levequests, so I think it'll balance out.

[Wynn]

This is the shards argument all over again.

Crafter: "Why are you charging so much for shards?!"

Battler: "You can afford it, you make tons of money. Stop complaining!"

Next Day

Battler: "WTF?! Why is your stuff so expensive!?"

Crafter: "You can afford it, you just raped me yesterday on shard prices and I need to make back my costs somehow..."

Battler: "Greedy crafter!"

Crafter: "Greedy battler!"

[LateReg]

Consider this...

The point of gathering, in it's simplest form, is to collect materials (to sell, or to convert into whatever items by yourself or a friend). Above all, at this point, to make money.

The point of crafting is to use materials (gathered or purchased) to create equipment to use or sell, your choice entirely. Again, above all, usually to make money in the end.

The point of combat classes is to fight cool mobs and bosses and raid whatever dungeons come up in the future, as well as to progress through the story (when more of that comes) with other cool fights, etc. Given that both DoH and DoL are left out of all the "coolness" so to speak, they make up for it in their own ways. Combat classes shouldn't be allowed to have all the fun (fight cool stuff, AND make a ton of money), so why are you guys complaining about that?

Morever, I think many people will level at least one crafting or gathering class to the cap (or close to it) in their time playing this game, so it'd be easy to just balance out whatever craft you don't have leveled with the one that you do. i.e.: make money on Blacksmithing to pay for a craft you can't do on your rank 20 Goldsmith.

Put it this way, if combat classes could: make money, fight awesome stuff, progress through story in a party setting with friends, wear all the cool armor, get cool abilities, etc, etc - what would be the point of ever touching crafts or gathering? (inb4 "some people like to play Farmville")

[Peregrine]

Here are the schematics of what this system will do to the balance between crafters, gatherers, and battlers.

Right off the bat, crafters benefit. The first step of making a materia'd gear is to purchase something from a crafter to start turning into materia. Battlers and gatherers start off by buying multiple things from crafters.

Battlers -1. Gatherers -1. Crafters +2.
Battlers finish their materia and sell it to crafters.
Battlers 0. Gatherers -1. Crafters+1
Gatherers gain catalyst and sell it to crafters.
Battlers 0. Gathererrs 0. Crafters 0.

Now. Crafters by the books now own:
All the gear.
All the materia.
All the catalyst.

AND THEY ARE EVEN WITH GATHERERS AND BATTLERS.

Crafter combines the cost they incurred by buying the catalyst and materia from players and use that as their base selling price for just straight gear.

Battlers -1. Gatherers -1. Crafters +2.

They mark gear up for rarer combinations.

Battlers -2. Gatherers -2. Crafters +4.

They charge 1000% return on epic pieces.

Battlers -???. Gatherers -????. Crafters +???

Crafters essentially own this entire market the second it starts, and cannot ever. EVER. Not come out ridiculously on top.