[dev1002] The entire world lacking as a battle environment.

[Boricua]

The FFXI death penalty didn't make the bad players any better. It also didn't make it's content more challenging or harder.

This argument holds no weight as challenge by definition is:

• to arouse or stimulate especially by presenting with difficulties

(Merriam-Webster)

The risk and consequences of dying in XI is the difficulty by which players were presented a challenging WIN/LOSE scenario by which through whatever means necessary: you didn't want to die and desired victory. So yes having something to lose is stimulating and therefore challenging.

Difficulty by definition is:

• something difficult: impediment

(Merriam-Webster)

Dying in any game (and its consequences) impedes progress towards a winning scenario. The impediment of dying with a penalty certainly did raise the level of difficulty in scenarios that would otherwise take no thinking before action. That is why an R1 mob outside of a city isn't hard or challenging in comparison to a boss fight to end an entire expansion/mission line. In the same sense that fights got easier in XI when exp loss in certain instances was removed. At that point you could try just about anything without real thought or strategy to win and it wouldn't matter how many times it didn't work, as long as one attempt did.

It is hard to argue either way that all novices benefit from learning curves and death penalties. What cannot be denied is that having consequences in place will certainly help players realize their mistakes and attempt to correct them. Even as basic as dodging aggro or pulling too much enmity. A childhood 'timeout' of 150 seconds weakened alone can never achieve a true WIN/LOSE scenario, instead it's WIN/WIN which gives me no satisfaction. Think candy from a baby...

[Xzen]

This argument holds no weight as challenge by definition is:

• to arouse or stimulate especially by presenting with difficulties

(Merriam-Webster)

The risk and consequences of dying in XI is the difficulty by which players were presented a challenging WIN/LOSE scenario by which through whatever means necessary: you didn't want to die and desired victory. So yes having something to lose is stimulating and therefore challenging.

Difficulty by definition is:

• something difficult: impediment

(Merriam-Webster)

Dying in any game (and its consequences) impedes progress towards a winning scenario. The impediment of dying with a penalty certainly did raise the level of difficulty in scenarios that would otherwise take no thinking before action. That is why an R1 mob outside of a city isn't hard or challenging in comparison to a boss fight to end an entire expansion/mission line. In the same sense that fights got easier in XI when exp loss in certain instances was removed. At that point you could try just about anything without real thought or strategy to win and it wouldn't matter how many times it didn't work, as long as one attempt did.

It is hard to argue either way that all novices benefit from learning curves and death penalties. What cannot be denied is that having consequences in place will certainly help players realize their mistakes and attempt to correct them. Even as basic as dodging aggro or pulling too much enmity. A childhood 'timeout' of 150 seconds weakened alone can never achieve a true WIN/LOSE scenario, instead it's WIN/WIN which gives me no satisfaction. Think candy from a baby...

But the death penalty did not make any of the content more difficult or have any bearing on how hard an NM was. It also had no effect on me not wanting to die or how much I enjoyed downing an NM or completing a storyline. That is something that is completely subjective and does not apply to everyone. What it boils down to for myself is "what is consuming my time in these games?" is it actual content or is it flaws in game design or superficial game mechanics(the original market place that we had is right there with the harsh death penalty in my book).

[DarthTaru]

But the death penalty did not make any of the content more difficult or have any bearing on how hard an NM was. It also had no effect on me not wanting to die or how much I enjoyed downing an NM or completing a storyline. That is something that is completely subjective and does not apply to everyone. What it boils down to for myself is "what is consuming my time in these games?" is it actual content or is it flaws in game design or superficial game mechanics(the original market place that we had is right there with the harsh death penalty in my book).

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right for a moment and say that a death penalty doesn't make one any better at the game. If that were so, why even bother having to home point? After all, "what a waste of time having to run all the way back." And if that were the case, would players, then, also not be improving at the game? How about having automatic reraise on everyone at all times? Would the community reach the same skill level in years to come? If death was merely a five second delay in whatever it was that we were doing? Why even take damage from mob attacks?

Obviously, the death penalty made players much more skilled and much more efficient in whatever it was they were trying to do. In XI my main was BLM and I spent the majority of my best years in that game soloing, duoing, and trioing difficult challenges using skills that I learned (and continued to learn!) out of necessity to avoid death. There is no way, as I see it, that I would of been soloing limbus or Brothers in an environment that did not punish me for making mistakes. Even simple lessons that now seem fundamental, obvious even, were learned with my survival at the forefront of my thinking.

If two identical men on identical lots of land were told to hunt but one was brought food every day and one was threatened with starvation, which would you guess would have become the superior hunter?

No penalty for death just results in a lazy and stupid playerbase, period. You can say that the death penalty did not make NM's more difficult and in some ways that might be correct. When I had Tiamat claimed, I was not necessarily concerned with XP loss and more concerned with looking like a motard in front of a rival linkshell and/or losing claim to another. However, the skills that brought me to Tiamat to begin with were learned much earlier, and learned because there was something on the line.

[OJtheLIONKing]

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right for a moment and say that a death penalty doesn't make one any better at the game. If that were so, why even bother having to home point? After all, "what a waste of time having to run all the way back." And if that were the case, would players, then, also not be improving at the game? How about having automatic reraise on everyone at all times? Would the community reach the same skill level in years to come? If death was merely a five second delay in whatever it was that we were doing? Why even take damage from mob attacks?

Obviously, the death penalty made players much more skilled and much more efficient in whatever it was they were trying to do. In XI my main was BLM and I spent the majority of my best years in that game soloing, duoing, and trioing difficult challenges using skills that I learned (and continued to learn!) out of necessity to avoid death. There is no way, as I see it, that I would of been soloing limbus or Brothers in an environment that did not punish me for making mistakes. Even simple lessons that now seem fundamental, obvious even, were learned with my survival at the forefront of my thinking.

If two identical men on identical lots of land were told to hunt but one was brought food every day and one was threatened with starvation, which would you guess would have become the superior hunter?

No penalty for death just results in a lazy and stupid playerbase, period. You can say that the death penalty did not make NM's more difficult and in some ways that might be correct. When I had Tiamat claimed, I was not necessarily concerned with XP loss and more concerned with looking like a motard in front of a rival linkshell and/or losing claim to another. However, the skills that brought me to Tiamat to begin with were learned much earlier, and learned because there was something on the line.

Slippery slope arguments are a bit tricky. After all, since more severe DPs make more skilled players according to you, by that logic having permanent death should make everyone experts, right? But it doesn't, because you need to be able to experiment, develop your skills and find your niche. Even if it did, only a few people would be willing to put up with that, as evidenced by the amount of players who actually used hardcore mode in Diablo II which did exactly that.

Nothing about DP directly impacts the battle as you fight it. No matter what in FFXI, if you wiped the mob would reset back to full hp. In other words, if you died, you failed, and you had to start over again. This is probably something they should change in FFXIV. I am puzzled as to why the mobs in Guildleves in this game don't reset to full when you wipe--they probably should so you can't grind them down as I have on enemies like cactuars with broken one-shot skills. Hopefully, before they do that they change some enemies to not have one-shot skills, or a much longer interrupt window, before that. I've seriously spammed supposed interrupt skills the second I see them start charging and it still hasn't made it out in time cuz of the laggy game engine...but I digress.

No matter what, in any game you want to avoid death. Even in games like Prince of Persia where you never really "died", you still had to have the skills to advance in order to do so. Taking less time with loading screens etc didn't win the game for you, you still needed to do that on your own. Similarly, the threat of having to spend hours doing boring grinding (mind you, in a game I'm paying for in order to have fun, not give myself a second job) if you die has no impact on actual battles other than making you less willing to take risks like getting into tough battles in the first place. You may say that didn't apply to you, but it certainly did apply to a large amount of FFXI players. More occasions than I can count, I remember LS members and friends not helping out or doing something because they didn't have a buffer, and I was no exception. If you're ignoring the risks and taking on tough challenges, the DP has no effect on you anyway, so that doesn't work either. All it is is a timesink and a relic of a bygone age of MMOs where game developers thought death needed very harsh punishments. Timesinks are, to some extent, necessary for MMOs to stretch their content, but players are much more savvy than they were 8 years ago, and most of us won't tolerate such transparent ones anymore, since they are associated with a lack of content. I have tried over the years to get many MMO players into FFXI, but they refused or tried but couldn't enjoy it for the same reason an xp loss DP is bad: grind. Remember, an MMO is not a professional sport, we're not here to whittle people down until we get champions, the game exists to get as many subscribers as possible because it is a business.

Aside from that, there were MANY bad players on FFXI, being patient enough for XP parties didn't make you a great player any more than driving a lot makes you qualified to race professionally. The skill level was about the same as in other MMOs I've played, although FFXI players are necessarily more polite because of the heavy emphasis on groups--but again, that's not a hard and fast rule either, I've met real jerks on FFXI who nevertheless were also the best geared.

The golden age of MMOs came when some developers realized that harsh penalties and naked grind (I'm going to regret that phrasing) aren't necessary to make a fun, challenging game. I'm willing to put in huge amounts of hours to other MMOs because they mix up the leveling process: quest here, dungeon there, pvp somewhere I don't have to deal with it, etc instead of 4-12 hours straight of killing the same damned mobs in an xp party. They also don't punish you with more grind for death, so players are more willing to experiment, which leads to more adventure and more content played, which leads to more fun. As you play more, and varied, content, you get more experience doing different things besides xp grinding, and you get better at the game. You're an FFXI player, you know as well as I do that XP parties have a different skillset than NMs, so more grind doesn't make you better at that after you learn the basics.

I'll say it again, I had my best times in FFXI when no one in the group was concerned about the death penalty. We took more risks, got less upset at each other for failing, and became better players because of it while enjoying ourselves more. The game was better off when it started deprecating the effects of the death penalty, and this game is better for having such a lenient one. It makes me more willing to help people, to experiment with different builds to find what works best, and to take on difficult content.

Lastly, please don't use the "lazy stupid easy mode" etc catchphrase. I don't mean to personally insult you, but that is like Godwin's Law for game forums: it means the debate is over because the person saying it has no real argument. I'm not "lazy and stupid" for not wanting to spend hours on a meaningless grind every time I want to experience the actual fun part of the game. I've got a job and responsibilities, I have limited time to spend on leisure and I want to make sure I'm enjoying myself when I play a game I'm paying a monthly fee for. It's far from impossible to have a challenging game without forcing players with limited time to spend most of it grinding. Heck, single player games manage it all the time. FFXIII was actually the hardest FF game I've ever played (and I've played all the mainline series and a good amount of the spinoffs) and it had almost no penalty for death, but because a wipe meant I didn't have to waste a lot of time getting back to where I was, I was more willing to put up with it and experiment until i found the right strategy.

tl:dr DP doesn't make players better at the game, actually playing the game does. I have to include these little summaries cuz I have doubts anyone reads my essay-length posts--I am rarely on forums precisely because I take so much time in writing responses, and that's time I'd rather be playing games, but I thought I should comment on this.

[Synthesis]

Fully agree.

[Xzen]

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right for a moment and say that a death penalty doesn't make one any better at the game. If that were so, why even bother having to home point? After all, "what a waste of time having to run all the way back." And if that were the case, would players, then, also not be improving at the game? How about having automatic reraise on everyone at all times? Would the community reach the same skill level in years to come? If death was merely a five second delay in whatever it was that we were doing? Why even take damage from mob attacks?

Obviously, the death penalty made players much more skilled and much more efficient in whatever it was they were trying to do. In XI my main was BLM and I spent the majority of my best years in that game soloing, duoing, and trioing difficult challenges using skills that I learned (and continued to learn!) out of necessity to avoid death. There is no way, as I see it, that I would of been soloing limbus or Brothers in an environment that did not punish me for making mistakes. Even simple lessons that now seem fundamental, obvious even, were learned with my survival at the forefront of my thinking.

If two identical men on identical lots of land were told to hunt but one was brought food every day and one was threatened with starvation, which would you guess would have become the superior hunter?

No penalty for death just results in a lazy and stupid playerbase, period. You can say that the death penalty did not make NM's more difficult and in some ways that might be correct. When I had Tiamat claimed, I was not necessarily concerned with XP loss and more concerned with looking like a motard in front of a rival linkshell and/or losing claim to another. However, the skills that brought me to Tiamat to begin with were learned much earlier, and learned because there was something on the line.

On your story about the two hunters. If the hunter that is given food every day had the desire to become a great hunter he would likely become just as good if not better than the one that doesn't get food.

I met plenty of "lazy and stupid" players in FFXI that managed to fail their way to max level and NM camping and other end game content. The thing that separates FFXI's and FFXIV's community from other light DP games is the great community and not the death penalty. The only thing FFXI has that FFXIV lacks is great content.

[Grimm]

If we want this game more like FFXI community and fun wise sad to say we need Tanaka back. One of the things that made XI great was the community everyone who felt ''Making us group together sucks! I rather solo they can leave guild leves in for you. But I personally would like to be forced to work together what is the point of SOLO play in a MMORPG it take's the multi-player out of it. So for everyone who wants a MSORPG FF is not the series for you. The series has ALWAYS been about bands of hero grouping together to crush evil and stay alive. Not one person killing a squirrel. This game does need a lot more FFXI in it, not just XI but FF in general. not for the solo, not for the hardcore, For the FF fan's and them alone. We have stuck with the series through company changes and mergers and welcomed all changes over time. But FFXIV is only a FF in name, Not spirit. So please SE. Listen to the FF fans not the MMORPG or MSORPG fans.

[Kimahri]

Okay. First of all, Grimm. It was Tanaka's stupidity that brought this game crashing down. He's not the answer. Now I'm going to throw up a quote from Boricua to illustrate a point.

In the same sense that fights got easier in XI when exp loss in certain instances was removed. At that point you could try just about anything without real thought or strategy to win and it wouldn't matter how many times it didn't work, as long as one attempt did.

And now; one from DarthTaru to ease Xzen.

You can say that the death penalty did not make NM's more difficult and in some ways that might be correct. When I had Tiamat claimed, I was not necessarily concerned with XP loss and more concerned with looking like a motard in front of a rival linkshell and/or losing claim to another. However, the skills that brought me to Tiamat to begin with were learned much earlier, and learned because there was something on the line.

Now. What we have here are two examples as to what it's like with the death penalty, and what it's like without. I'm going to go ahead and tell you, Xzen, the most perfect example. Besieged. That is the one instance I can recall that first started the no death penalty in an instanced area.

If you remember with me, you'll recall that just like what Boricua and DeathTaru are saying, there is no skill, difficulty, or challenge from Besieged. At least not to me. I was from the Siren server and I don't know if they are anymore, but when I left we had never lost a Besieged. The only thing I can say about Besieged is that when you were KO'd and got back up, what did you do? I seen so many people jump back up and continue to fight knowing they'd die again soon, but at least they'd still get experience. A no death penalty will implore people to not care as long as the enemy is taken down. They could get up and die twenty more times as long as it receives the desired effect from doing so. In your own words I suppose, Xzen, newbs will continue to stay newbs and turn into noobs for not recognizing their own mistakes from earlier. I was a Galka and leveled BLM by myself. I knew when first starting that I'd have to be on my toes and be the best. I ended up a great BLM for a Galka. Rather sad though that a nearly naked Tarutaru was doing more damage than me in Bibiki Bay.....And I had on a hell of a lot of MAB & INT gear.

All I'm saying is that no death penalty in terms of exp loss towards this game would cripple it in terms of strategy and challenges. Down the line you'll see people that die in XP groups and stay dead until they get the EXP from the mob, Return, and then run back to fight the other enemy the group is facing with no thought of consequences. Oh. By the way OJTheLionKing.....I played Diablo II a long time ago. In terms of devoloping skills? There was no such thing when playing the AI in Hardcore. It always ended up being a Paladin using his Holy Hammers to obliterate anything. Now in terms of PvP your statement is correct. Lot of people trying out different combinations. Diablo II in your example isn't evidence to your claim. You just half-assed it like most people do.

[Grimm]

Okay. First of all, Grimm. It was Tanaka's stupidity that brought this game crashing down. He's not the answer. Now I'm going to throw up a quote from Boricua to illustrate a point.

Yes it was Tanaka but it was also Tanaka who gave us everything we loved about XI. Now I think and Hope Yoshi will finally wake up and realize this is a FF not just any MMO. I feel like as of now they are treating it like a random MMO with no namesake. FOR GODS SAKE SE GO BACK TO WHAT YOU HAVE DONE IN THE PAST 20 YEARS OF FF It does not have to be a new Idea to be new! Build off the countless ideas you had and mix them. The main problem is for me they are treating it like the FF series does not already have a fan base as if it is a new game to everyone hence it was built like one. The only thing FF about this game right now is the Mogs and a few mobs and they are rare.

[Xzen]

Okay. First of all, Grimm. It was Tanaka's stupidity that brought this game crashing down. He's not the answer. Now I'm going to throw up a quote from Boricua to illustrate a point.



And now; one from DarthTaru to ease Xzen.



Now. What we have here are two examples as to what it's like with the death penalty, and what it's like without. I'm going to go ahead and tell you, Xzen, the most perfect example. Besieged. That is the one instance I can recall that first started the no death penalty in an instanced area.

If you remember with me, you'll recall that just like what Boricua and DeathTaru are saying, there is no skill, difficulty, or challenge from Besieged. At least not to me. I was from the Siren server and I don't know if they are anymore, but when I left we had never lost a Besieged. The only thing I can say about Besieged is that when you were KO'd and got back up, what did you do? I seen so many people jump back up and continue to fight knowing they'd die again soon, but at least they'd still get experience. A no death penalty will implore people to not care as long as the enemy is taken down. They could get up and die twenty more times as long as it receives the desired effect from doing so. In your own words I suppose, Xzen, newbs will continue to stay newbs and turn into noobs for not recognizing their own mistakes from earlier. I was a Galka and leveled BLM by myself. I knew when first starting that I'd have to be on my toes and be the best. I ended up a great BLM for a Galka. Rather sad though that a nearly naked Tarutaru was doing more damage than me in Bibiki Bay.....And I had on a hell of a lot of MAB & INT gear.

All I'm saying is that no death penalty in terms of exp loss towards this game would cripple it in terms of strategy and challenges. Down the line you'll see people that die in XP groups and stay dead until they get the EXP from the mob, Return, and then run back to fight the other enemy the group is facing with no thought of consequences. Oh. By the way OJTheLionKing.....I played Diablo II a long time ago. In terms of devoloping skills? There was no such thing when playing the AI in Hardcore. It always ended up being a Paladin using his Holy Hammers to obliterate anything. Now in terms of PvP your statement is correct. Lot of people trying out different combinations. Diablo II in your example isn't evidence to your claim. You just half-assed it like most people do.

While I agree with your example I would also argue that the problem with besieged was a flaw in how it was designed. Even though there was no DP I found ways to solo in Besieged without dieing and got a lot more than you do if you run in like an idiot without thinking. For some people getting better at something comes from a desire to become good at it and not from fear of loss. Newbs will get better as long as they want to get better. Also people already die in groups and stay dead until the mobs are cleared so they get SP. Simple fix is to make it so they don't gain SP while they are dead.

Just to add the great community that was in FFXI is already here. All the "riff raff" that nobody wanted in this game left within the first month. So we don't even need the DP to keep them away.