[suggestion] expand the class quest system

[Betelgeuzah]

It's not nearly comparable to the low level experience in other games, sorry. Not even on the same planet.

Yes, the guildleve system needs work and combat is not fun, the tutorials are missing and there is not much to look forward to. Although that's not even a bad thing- it shouldn't be comparable, because that's away from the rest of the game. The content needs to be balanced, and if that means the quality of start is slightly lower, that's fine.

LOL. Any MMORPG (or any kind of game actually) developer will tell you that working with a pre-existing lore is *much* harder than working with an original lore. Not only you are subject to a lot more restrictions on what you can and cannot do, with that lore, but also you have to cope with the *established* image of that existing lore the fans have, and the fans are even more demanding and unforgiving than the actual owners of an IP. Final Fantasy XIV suffers partly from that problem because even if it's an original lore, it's still part of an established IP.

Yet a) you listed games with pre-existing lore instead of original lore, and b) games with no pre-existing lore tend to suck hard. So what can we take from this? It's easier to fail when you make a game based on pre-existing lore (and I agree, AoC, WAR and others didn't do that good of a job at presenting it to the player. I mean hell, you had gandalfs and gimlis and whatever in LOTRO but there was, again, no context to them. They were fanservice) and when you don't focus on creating a good lore for your unique IP, the end result is no better- actually worse. Even if they could make a better lore, they simply don't bother.

This game has several interesting lore- and story-aspects to it already, and they have only a loose, original connection to FF-lore at worst. Garlean empire (with hi-tech setting to make it even more interesting), the Primal beastmen and how the Summons connect to them, Ishgard and their struggle with dragons, the new coming of legendary Archons and how their story ties up to the ancient ruins found in the Thanalan region (which may also explain to us why Thanalan became a barren wasteland), and the inner conflicts in the city-states themselves. Each city-state has their own mysterious protagonists, and the antagonist makes his appearance in the later quests, yet not everything is revealed about him at first glance, including his intentions. In Rift the very first cutscene reveals the bland antagonist and I can bet my hat that he is the bad guy and he is who the players are going to end up fighting, why... Well, because he's a big bad evil boss terrorizing the neighborhood (because he's EEVIIIL) of course!

If you think this setting doesn't beat what other games have to offer (especially those with no pre-existing lore), I'd really like to hear examples. Only WoW comes close and beats it, but when you use the pre-existing lore that has been built up over the years efficiently it's no wonder you can get ahead. Everyone knows what's going to happen in general tho. We fight Lich King? I did not see that coming!

ALL of them are more successful than FFXIV at the moment. LOTRO is nowhere near a failure, and Star Wars Galaxies still has to be released.

And none of that has to do with how the lower levels are set-up. You are coming into conclusions based on factors that have nothing to do with the success or lack of success for this game. You also can't speak for SW:TOR as it has not been released yet, and frankly it looks horrible.

This game has plenty competition, on every level, lore included. So it needs to gain a competitive edge on every level, lowbie experience included. At the moment, that's lacking. Sorely.

No other game is FINAL FANTASY. No other game is putting emphasis on sandbox-like features nor community, aside from TERA with it's politics, while, again, it has things it lacks just like any other game. SE needs to sell this game to their target audience, and offer things their competitors can not. Community is one of them. An original lore that is interesting is another. "The Exiled Realm of Arborea"? "Rift: Planes of Telara"? "Aion: The Tower of Eternity"? In other words

"Generic: The X of Y:
-because we had to make up something fast to justify our "new" gameplay mechanic-"-the game

[Abriael]

Yes, the guildleve system needs work and combat is not fun, the tutorials are missing and there is not much to look forward to. Although that's not even a bad thing- it shouldn't be comparable, because that's away from the rest of the game. The content needs to be balanced, and if that means the quality of start is slightly lower, that's fine.

Lol. Combat has nothing to do with this. Competing on the combat aspect is a completely different pair of sleeves. Guildleves are just a repeatable quest system, it can't get much deeper than this. People expect story-based experiences. Guildleves are a good filler, but will never be more than filler.
It's never fine to have a lower quality lowbie game. First impressions in MMORPGs have been demonstrated over and over to be critical.

Yet a) you listed games with pre-existing lore instead of original lore, and b) games with no pre-existing lore tend to suck hard.

City of heroes has an original lore. EVE online has an original lore, Both are compelling and deep. BEsides, "tend to suck hard" is an entirely debatable and arbitrary evaluation of yours.

This game has several interesting lore- and story-aspects to it already, and they have only a loose, original connection to FF-lore at worst. Garlean empire (with hi-tech setting to make it even more interesting), the Primal beastmen and how the Summons connect to them, Ishgard and their struggle with dragons, the new coming of legendary Archons and how their story ties up to the ancient ruins found in the Thanalan region (which may also explain to us why Thanalan became a barren wasteland), and the inner conflicts in the city-states themselves. Each city-state has their own mysterious protagonists, and the antagonist makes his appearance in the later quests, yet not everything is revealed about him at first glance, including his intentions. In Rift the very first cutscene reveals the bland antagonist and I can bet my hat that he is the bad guy and he is who the players are going to end up fighting, why... Well, because he's a big bad evil boss terrorizing the neighborhood (because he's EEVIIIL) of course!

The lore is interesting but it's presented in a WAY too diluted way towards the beginning of the game. The same comes for the guilds. You're simply thrown into a world of which you know basically nothing (and your character decidedly isn't a kid), and remain blindfolded for a long time before you start to even see a bit of light. That's way too little too late and fails at keeping new players hooked until the "good stuff" comes.

If you think this setting doesn't beat what other games have to offer (especially those with no pre-existing lore), I'd really like to hear examples.

I already gave plenty. This game may beat them from my personal point of view, but it's doubtless that many other MMORPGs in the markets have a very good lore, that definitely is on par, competition-wise with this.
Sorry but "it has a better lore" doesn't make a very compelling asset in a commercial competition between games nowadays.

And none of that has to do with how the lower levels are set-up. You are coming into conclusions based on factors that have nothing to do with the success or lack of success for this game.

Actually, since one of the most criticized aspect of the game in reviews is the very weak lowbie content (which is the only thing most reviewers play, by the way), and reviews DO influence a game's success, yes, it's fairly safe to say that it had a LOT to do with how the lower levels are setup.

You also can't speak for SW:TOR as it has not been released yet, and frankly it looks horrible.

I know how bioware operates. It'll have a very compelling lore, and a very strong game start.

No other game is FINAL FANTASY. No other game is putting emphasis on sandbox-like features nor community, aside from TERA with it's politics, while, again, it has things it lacks just like any other game. SE needs to sell this game to their target audience, and offer things their competitors can not. Community is one of them. An original lore that is interesting is another. "The Exiled Realm of Arborea"? "Rift: Planes of Telara"? "Aion: The Tower of Eternity"? In other words

"Generic: The X of Y:
-because we had to make up something fast to justify our "new" gameplay mechanic-"-the game

LOL. There's no audience that's LESS appropriate to a sandbox environment than the Final Fantasy one, that comes from SINGLE PLAYER games on consoles.
Selling the game to the Final Fantasy target audience means selling a strong, dense story-driven product. Not a sandbox with repeatable miniquests.

[Betelgeuzah]

Lol. Combat has nothing to do with this. Competing on the combat aspect is a completely different pair of sleeves. Guildleves are just a repeatable quest system, it can't get much deeper than this. People expect story-based experiences. Guildleves are a good filler, but will never be more than filler.

Firstly, Guildleves can be randomized like in Nyzul. They can implement a ladder-style progression to it (like progressing in the ranks of the three factions), where you get to fight bigger monsters and tougher(looking) bosses. They can be made a part of the garlean invasion by having your performance judged by the game and making the garleans either defend or attack accordingly dynamically. More objectives can be implemented. Random events between NPC's or even humanoid mobs can be implemented that flesh out the story in the leves. Efficiency can be made more rewarding, giving people a reason to try to get "a high score" during the leve, like more SP. Random buffs and debuffs can be added to make things more interesting. And that's just what my imagination can come up with.

You are making yourself look more and more ridiculous by saying "guildleves can't be more than they are". It's like you are looking at the world through your own narrow glasses that only see what's in front of you, not what could be. Guildleves are a template, a Tabula Rasa, and SE can do anything they want with the system. It is simply full of possibilities. Full of them.

EVE online has an original lore, Both are compelling and deep. BEsides, "tend to suck hard" is an entirely debatable and arbitrary evaluation of yours.

Excel Online has original, good lore? Was it behind all the math and technical info the game throws at you?

Those who don't think the lore sucks live in a denial or are fanboys. Simple.

The lore is interesting but it's presented in a WAY too diluted way towards the beginning of the game. The same comes for the guilds. You're simply thrown into a world of which you know basically nothing (and your character decidedly isn't a kid), and remain blindfolded for a long time before you start to even see a bit of light. That's way too little too late and fails at keeping new players hooked until the "good stuff" comes.

Hell, I don't know about you but I was presented with background info about Archons and the coming invasion of Garlean empire at rank 5. It will only get better once they add more to it.

I already gave plenty. This game may beat them from my personal point of view, but it's doubtless that many other MMORPGs in the markets have a very good lore, that definitely is on par, competition-wise with this.

Well, why aren't we getting any examples? Excel Online? LOTR "HEY LOOK, OUR GAME HAS GANDALF" Online? Rift "Our game is named after our novel new gameplay feature, see how serious we are about the lore? LOL!"? Age of "Hey isnt this world cool? Not that there's anything to really look forward to, but HEY LOOK IT'S" Conan? Aside from WoW, every game fails hard lorewise, one way or the other.

Actually, since one of the most criticized aspect of the game in reviews is the very weak lowbie content (which is the only thing most reviewers play, by the way), and reviews DO influence a game's success, yes, it's fairly safe to say that it had a LOT to do with how the lower levels are setup.

Which is why a) tutorials and b) guild"this system can't be made any better"leves must be implemented and fleshed out. But because we can only look at the present situation (where there are a lot of sidequests to do already), we can not figure out a situation where things would be different without doing exactly what the OP proposes to do. Oh wait, that's not "we", that's just you.

LOL. There's no audience that's LESS appropriate to a sandbox environment than the Final Fantasy one, that comes from SINGLE PLAYER games on consoles.

Yet the FINAL FANTASY audience has been craving for all things sandboxy since what, FFX?

Just like "there is no less appropriate audience for FPS games than the console audience". "There's no less appropriate audience for MMO's than the RTS audience". Oh wait, how'd that go? But yes, keep LOLing all you want.

Selling the game to the Final Fantasy target audience means selling a strong, dense story-driven product. Not a sandbox with repeatable miniquests.

Cities! Open world you can explore! Sidequests! Towns full of NPC's! Did you not hear about the criticism of XIII? That game can't get any more dense storywise, yet somehow the audience was asking for the aforementioned things. Hmm.

[Abriael]

I will skip the petty personal attacks you seem to be so fond of, and I'll just respond to the arguments, if you don't mind.

Firstly, Guildleves can be randomized like in Nyzul. They can implement a ladder-style progression to it (like progressing in the ranks of the three factions), where you get to fight bigger monsters and tougher(looking) bosses. They can be made a part of the garlean invasion by having your performance judged by the game and making the garleans either defend or attack accordingly dynamically. More objectives can be implemented. Random events between NPC's or even humanoid mobs can be implemented that flesh out the story in the leves. Efficiency can be made more rewarding, giving people a reason to try to get "a high score" during the leve, like more SP. Random buffs and debuffs can be added to make things more interesting. And that's just what my imagination can come up with.

You seem not to have noticed what guildleves are intended to be. A quick and dirty repeatable leveling medium. You can easily bet your monthly wage that no further storyline elements will be added to them, simply because that would defeat the purpose of their quickness. Besides, the fact that they're repeatable would lead people to simply skip the story part even if it was implemented.
Shallow content doesn't make for deep storylines, and guildleves are just that, utility-oriented but quite shallow content.

Excel Online has original, good lore? Was it behind all the math and technical info the game throws at you?

Those who don't think the lore sucks live in a denial or are fanboys. Simple.

"I'm right because I'm right!". Sorry mate, but I'm afraid that tastes different than yours are still valid, as much as you don't seem to accept that.
Disagreeing with you != Being fanboys or in denial.

Hell, I don't know about you but I was presented with background info about Archons and the coming invasion of Garlean empire at rank 5. It will only get better once they add more to it.

That's all nice and fun, but it's *text*. While It's definitely a nice read, it doesn't exactly equate to something that can get a new player hooked in nowadays' market. You need the fireworks to do that, and the fireworks are missing.

Well, why aren't we getting any examples? Excel Online? LOTR "HEY LOOK, OUR GAME HAS GANDALF" Online? Rift "Our game is named after our novel new gameplay feature, see how serious we are about the lore? LOL!"? Age of "Hey isnt this world cool? Not that there's anything to really look forward to, but HEY LOOK IT'S" Conan?

You got the examples. The fact that you don't *personally* like them (since it seems that for you FFXIV is the only game with a cool lore out there, lol). doesn't make less valid examples.

Aside from WoW, every game fails hard lorewise, one way or the other.

You mean that childish, messy, half-copied cauldron of cheap pop culture and sad comic relief? Quite refined...

Which is why a) tutorials and b) guild"this system can't be made any better"leves must be implemented and fleshed out. But because we can only look at the present situation (where there are a lot of sidequests to do already), we can not figure out a situation where things would be different without doing exactly what the OP proposes to do. Oh wait, that's not "we", that's just you.

Yep, of course you think they're gonna add the world to low levels in a few months. Funny how you were the one talking about finite resources.
The present situation is what we have in front of our eyes, and the easiest solution to the absolute lack of start game content is to condense what we have towards lower levels and add to it. The rest is wishful thinking, blind faith and rosy tinted glasses.
Suggestions are, obviously, to be based on the present situation, not on what santa claus will bring.

[UOTE]Yet the FINAL FANTASY audience has been craving for all things sandboxy since what, FFX? [/QUOTE]

Oh, and where exactly did you get that?

Cities! Open world you can explore! Sidequests! Towns full of NPC's! Did you not hear about the criticism of XIII? That game can't get any more dense storywise, yet somehow the audience was asking for the aforementioned things. Hmm.

Actually the main points of criticism to FFXIII are that the characters are shallow, there's little involvement and character progression, and the story is too simplistic. Things that you seem to really enjoy, considering how you seem to be so adamantly resistant to any deepening of the story and it's characters.

[zaviermhigo]

I guess there are new players if people didn't know there was any class quests lol. This was like major content for those of use who played since release (<- sucker who played beta [i feel for you alpha folk] and still bought CE to play one week early for no reason)

[Betelgeuzah]

You seem not to have noticed what guildleves are intended to be. A quick and dirty repeatable leveling medium.

Nothing I said or suggested goes against that concept. You simply want to live in denial, and that's okay, but I hope you won't base your suggestions on your twisted views of what can or can't be done to a game system in the future.

Sorry mate, but I'm afraid that tastes different than yours are still valid, as much as you don't seem to accept that.

They may be valid, but they are still not objectively any better because of it. That's what matters here. I'm not saying someone can't like a poorly constructed and presented lore, that simply doesn't make the lore any better.

That's all nice and fun, but it's *text*. While It's definitely a nice read, it doesn't exactly equate to something that can get a new player hooked in nowadays' market. You need the fireworks to do that, and the fireworks are missing.

Thus the Garleans are about to attack, and the lore makes it quite obvious.

Oh, but they are not attacking *now*, so they will never attack.

You got the examples. The fact that you don't *personally* like them (since it seems that for you FFXIV is the only game with a cool lore out there, lol). doesn't make less valid examples.

Valid, bad examples. FFXIV is not the only game with cool lore out there, but those games are few and far between. Blizzard managed to build their game on the Warcraft lore (while it is not by any means perfect illustration of the lore, it is good) so hats off to them. XI, while started off mediocre, also succeeded in creating an interesting lore, if only through the story, from the ground-up. There are not many games with objectively good lore that is well presented, and they all have some flaws, but it is a huge appeal nonetheless. If everything in the game is designed as "hay dis boss looks cool and should be fun to fight" instead of "this boss is a part of the background story and an important part of the overall storyline" the game comes off as shallow at best. It's like a series of fights, areas and text without context or it is simply an afterthought (that shows).

Some may like it, I don't doubt that at all, but that doesn't make them any better.

You mean that childish, messy, half-copied cauldron of cheap pop culture and sad comic relief? Quite refined...

Well, it's not without its faults, but all those things fit the game's overall style. It is not classy like XI and XIV try to be, and that's kinda the point. The important thing is to make everything fit to the style you want to present to the players. I can see why you wouldn't like how they do things (hell, I don't find it appealing either) but it all makes sense from their PoV and those who like that style also find pop culture references and comic relief entertaining.

Some other games with similar style often try to be way too serious, and the whole presentation falls on it's face. It's a delicate road, and even if you can try to mimic the art style and gameplay, you can't really imitate the lore. You need to make it fit your own game. That's harder than it sounds. For example, I think AoC would have benefited from a more classy approach to the lore and over-all style but I think they didn't quite make it. LOTRO also feels like they try to make the lore and presentation of it more cartoonish and "silly", but is that what you'd expect from a game based on the Tolkien classic? Maybe, maybe not. There's definitely an appeal for both, but personally I think that they should have taken the background their game is built on a bit more seriously than they did. It does have it's merits though, and I think aside from WoW and XI/V, it succeeds better than most other games.

Yep, of course you think they're gonna add the world to low levels in a few months.

The present situation is that they have added to the low levels and they have stated that they add to the low levels in the future as well, at the very least tutorials and such. Even if you think about the present, you need to take into account what they are already doing in the future, things we are aware of, and build from there. You can't simply ignore what they've said and only look at the present situation, because what you are suggesting is coming with said other changes.

Actually the main points of criticism to FFXIII are that the characters are shallow, there's little involvement and character progression, and the story is too simplistic.

Actually you are pulling these "main points of criticism" out of your arse. Where is the source stating that these are the main points of criticism? Or is this only some attempt to make up info to make your opinion about the criticism of XIII feel more valid and important? Because I ain't buying it. Source or it didn't happen.

And if you think that what I described as the criticism for XIII doesnt apply, do say so. People do want open world, cities, sidequests to do and towns full of NPC's. It may not be the only criticism, but that doesn't change the fact that these criticisms are things that sandboxish games have and what the target audience wants, among other things. And you should know that the opposite of a dense, story-driven game is a sandbox game. The audience can't want two different things at once. Further, what this games story lacks it makes up for it in lore and, as was said, the personal story you make for yourself, which is pretty much one of the main appeals of MMO's even if people have a hard time trying to pinpoint it.