[suggestion] expand the class quest system

[Betelgeuzah]

Most content from now on will be added to high and mid levels. That's how the norm goes in MMORPGs, with dungeon and such. I seriously doubt, as the game progresses, that people at mid to high levels will find themselves with nothing to do. On the other hand, I find that the low levels are rather empty, and unless they add dedicated content (which I find doubtful) they may remain that way.
Remember that in a MMORPG the first impression is *very* important. At the moment the low level first impression of FFXIV is a tad weak, IMHO.

There are main scenario quests for every 5 ranks from 1 to at least 20. That's already too much at least for 1-10 since you level so damn fast. There are also a good bit of quests to do for those ranks as well. There is simply no reason to add anything else for pre-20. And like in my example, there are three class quests for ranks 20 to 30. That is plenty, and more will be implemented with the sidequests in patches.

Actually, none of the content added since December has been for the higher level people. The NM's are for ranks 25 to 35. The quests range from ranks 5 to 30 or so. You have no basis for thinking that they will ignore the lower ranks (especially when they haven't even implemented the tutorial quests yet, who knows how good those are and for what level range).

You are making up excuses for your idea to be viable, but there is nothing that suggests that SE is going to ignore lower levels in the future. With leves, main scenario quests, tutorials and sidequests newbs will have a busy time until rank 20 and beyond where the mid-ranks begin and the class quests among other features are presented to the player.

It's not a matter of rushing. The kind of SP rewards i hypotesized would speed up leveling very, very slightly. Besides, questing takes time (lotsa running, at the moment). It's just a matter of balancing time spent with rewards.

You can't talk about balance before we see where the game is headed. You don't know how valuable the gil and other rewards will be when the time comes. Your thought process is way too narrow and focused in the present, when the present is irrelevant.

[Abriael]

There are main scenario quests for every 5 ranks from 1 to at least 20. That's already too much at least for 1-10 since you level so damn fast. There are also a good bit of quests to do for those ranks as well. There is simply no reason to add anything else for pre-20. And like in my example, there are three class quests for ranks 20 to 30. That is plenty, and more will be implemented with the sidequests in patches.

It's a lot, LOT less than the quest content basically every other game has to offer in the same timeframe. Again, first impression. New players come in expecting to find quest content comparable to other games they're used to, and they don't during the game's beginning. Getting turned off by consequence. That's one of the factors that determined the rocky start of this game.

Actually, none of the content added since December has been for the higher level people. The NM's are for ranks 25 to 35. The quests range from ranks 5 to 30 or so. You have no basis for thinking that they will ignore the lower ranks (especially when they haven't even implemented the tutorial quests yet, who knows how good those are and for what level range).

You are making up excuses for your idea to be viable, but there is nothing that suggests that SE is going to ignore lower levels in the future. With leves, main scenario quests, tutorials and sidequests newbs will have a busy time until rank 20 and beyond where the mid-ranks begin and the class quests among other features are presented to the player.

Actually, you seem to be making up excuses in order to oppose the idea for some reason. "NO! PLEASE don't give us more and more varied things to do at low levels!" (like it was a bad thing).
Every MMORPG developer always focuses more and more on higher level content as development progresses. The new NMs are mid-level content, not low-level.
Remember that this game is going to have a fresh relaunch with the PS3 version. When that happens the low level content will have to be VERY solid if the relaunch is to be successful.

You can't talk about balance before we see where the game is headed. You don't know how valuable the gil and other rewards will be when the time comes. Your thought process is way too narrow and focused in the present, when the present is irrelevant.

Changing an economy radically isn't something that can be easily done, and most probably won't happen. It might be adjusted, but not really revolutioned.

[Betelgeuzah]

It's a lot, LOT less than the quest content basically every other game has to offer in the same timeframe.

Yet they have a better quality. Or you saying the starting quests in any other MMO are like the main scenario quests in XIV? First impression is that a massive seadragon/goobbue/treant attacks you, shit goes down and epic stuff happens. Then you get to dive deeper into the story of the game every 5 ranks (which, as was said, are easy to acquire. I think the tutorial levequest got me to rank 4).

New players come in expecting to find quest content comparable to other games they're used to, and they don't during the game's beginning.

What the hell are you talking about? People expect to find themselves in a game with "ho ho ho adventurer, my soup needs 5 bat wings!"-quests and instead a massive dragonzoid attacks your ship. Later you are presented with more cutscenes that rival that of single player games, and you get to do your normal sidequests and guildleves as well while meeting other people. And it only gets better (not worse [important]) as time goes on and you unlock class quests. If the new combat system is any fun, that will keep people playing as well.

Actually, you seem to be making up excuses in order to oppose the idea for some reason. "NO! PLEASE don't give us more and more varied things to do at low levels!" (like it was a bad thing).

"For some reason"? I just told you it is bad design to focus your content on the ranks where you level up fast as-is, while making the higher ranks more barren. You saying that isn't a bad thing? To hell with consistency, must get the newbs hooked so that they can quit in the later levels when the content dries up!

Changing an economy radically isn't something that can be easily done, and most probably won't happen. It might be adjusted, but not really revolutioned.

You can't talk about balance before we see where the game is headed. You don't know how valuable the gil and other rewards will be when the time comes.

But, but, "maybe" "it might", "most probably", "I study teh ecanomix", blah blah.

You don't know, period.

[Abriael]

Yet they have a better quality. Or you saying the starting quests in any other MMO are like the main scenario quests in XIV? First impression is that a massive seadragon/goobbue/treant attacks you, shit goes down and epic stuff happens. Then you get to dive deeper into the story of the game every 5 ranks (which, as was said, are easy to acquire. I think the tutorial levequest got me to rank 4).

The "better quality" part is debatable. The density, is a lot lower and underwhelming to people used to other MMOs. It's one of the main points of criticism to the game for a reason.

What the hell are you talking about? People expect to find themselves in a game with "ho ho ho adventurer, my soup needs 5 bat wings!"-quests and instead a massive dragonzoid attacks your ship. Later you are presented with more cutscenes that rival that of single player games, and you get to do your normal sidequests and guildleves as well while meeting other people. And it only gets better (not worse [important]) as time goes on and you unlock class quests. If the new combat system is any fun, that will keep people playing as well.

I'm afraid you're quite behind in times, quests in other games evolved a LOT compared to the "oh oh, my soup needs 5 bat wings". Final Fantasy isn't the only game with good story-driven quests anymore.

"For some reason"? I just told you it is bad design to focus your content on the ranks where you level up fast as-is, while making the higher ranks more barren. You saying that isn't a bad thing? To hell with consistency, must get the newbs hooked so that they can quit in the later levels when the content dries up!

Yes, *must get the newbs hooked*, because if you don't *get the newbs hookes* they won't even have a chance to *get* to high levels. Every single MMO developer nowadays know that, and focuses a lot on that. Starting experience is *crucial* to the success of a MMO.

You can't talk about balance before we see where the game is headed. You don't know how valuable the gil and other rewards will be when the time comes.

But, but, "maybe" "it might", "most probably", "I study teh ecanomix", blah blah.

You don't know, period.

And you do?

[Betelgeuzah]

The "better quality" part is debatable. The density, is a lot lower and underwhelming to people used to other MMOs. It's one of the main points of criticism to the game for a reason.

I don't really know why that matters as long as the curve is designed to work with a lower density and offers similar progression. Further, if they can give GL system some character that will interest people in itself. They see that "hey, there are normal quests, but there are these main scenario quests and guildleves that are quite a bit different and interesting too, that's cool". After the "tutorial" (that they are designing the first 20 ranks to be), the game opens up even more. Not all at once, but little by little. While getting them hooked is important, keeping them interested is even more important. They must have something new to look forward to, and while "progressing the story", "getting new equipment", "doing more raids" are acceptable ways to do that, what really keeps people interested are new things to do. "Class quests and chocobo pass are waiting for me at rank 20, the first raid and the hamlet battles are waiting for me at rank 25, I can join a Grand Company and choose my job at rank 30, I can participate in PvP and PvE between Companies at rank 35"- that's what keeps people going forward.

I'm afraid you're quite behind in times, quests in other games evolved a LOT compared to the "oh oh, my soup needs 5 bat wings". Final Fantasy isn't the only game with good story-driven quests anymore.

Too bad the story is lame and unimportant in those games, not to mention too individualized. Yes, I played Rift and can't remember anything that was said in the "tutorial". Sure, epic shit was happening, but it was all without context. Other MMO's simply don't care enough to build an interesting lore from the ground up and a story to go with it.

Yes, *must get the newbs hooked*, because if you don't *get the newbs hookes* they won't even have a chance to *get* to high levels. Every single MMO developer nowadays know that, and focuses a lot on that. Starting experience is *crucial* to the success of a MMO.

The game is *new*, and if there is anything *new* about it that will keep the newbs hooked and wanting more. But yes, if the game is "yet another clone" with lore made of shades of gray, they gotta do something else to attempt to keep people playing. XIV does not have to resort to that, since they have systems in place that, when properly fleshed out, offer something novel to people. The sidequests are there to simply flesh out the lore background and offer filler in between the good stuff. It's not meant to be anything more.

And you do?

Hey, I'm not the one talking like I know what the economy will end up being like. But I sure as hell know the developers have a better idea than you do.

[Abriael]

The problem is that to get in line with the story-based experience at low levels in other major MMORPGs nowadays, SE has a LOT to add before the PS3 rerelease.
As I said other games have evolved a lot from the "go gather 40 bear pelts". Even games that are considered average like Warhammer Online or Age of Conan offer very compelling story-based experiences at low level, with a lot more density than FFXIV does.

Increasing density during the initial levels (which is absolutely crucial to actually create a customerbase) doesn't mean neglecting the high levels. In fact the idea is exactly to increase the density of lower level content AND to add more at higher levels.

[Betelgeuzah]

Even games that are considered average like Warhammer Online or Age of Conan offer very compelling story-based experiences at low level, with a lot more density than FFXIV does.

It is good that you mention those games, as everyone I know has said that the first 20 levels of AoC were brilliant while the rest was horrible. A classic case of putting all your attention to hook people and not thinking about how to keep them hooked as well. It's not the first 20 levels that matter, it's the whole package. And if the whole package is solid, people will keep going. AoC didn't have to make the tutorial as good as it was, they could have easily balanced it out with the rest of the game and people would have liked it a lot more.

What you say and what your examples are do not go hand-in-hand. To AoC, to WAR, to Aion, increasing density in the lower levels did mean neglecting the higher levels. What you are proposing here is the same thing. "Put most quests in the lower levels, ignore the higher levels for the most part." If that isn't decreasing density, I don't know what is.

I edited my post above.

[Abriael]

You seem to be assuming that since another developer didn't use enough resources to flesh out the story of their MMORPG at medium levels, SE should neglect the low levels. Sorry but it doesn't work like that.
SE has a LOT more resources than Funcom, and while AoC hasn't been massively successful, it's already been (and still is) MUCH more successful than FFXIV, even thanks to it's better newbie experience.

And LOL at other MMORPG not having a good lore. Final Fantasy isn't the only good lore out there. The conan lore is great, and the warhammer lore is one of the best fantasy settings even created. Let's not even get into looking at Lord of the Rings and the upcoming star wars.

There are PLENTY other MMOs in the market with a good story and good/complex lore, and a way more solid newbie experience than FFXIV. SE needs to get on a competitive level on that as well, or the relaunch will fail. It's that simple.

[Betelgeuzah]

You seem to be assuming that since another developer didn't use enough resources to flesh out the story of their MMORPG at medium levels, SE should neglect the low levels. Sorry but it doesn't work like that.

Nobody is neglecting the lower levels, as like I said, there is plenty to do in the lower levels and more is coming. I'm saying that they should not repeat what other developers did, what you are suggesting, because it has always ended in a failure. They should spread the content among all levels, without neglecting any level range. Naturally for that to happen the level range that takes longer to complete needs more content for the spread to be considered "even". That's a nobrainer.

And LOL at other MMORPG not having a good lore. Final Fantasy isn't the only good lore out there. The conan lore is great, and the warhammer lore is one of the best fantasy settings even created. Let's not even get into looking at Lord of the Rings and the upcoming star wars.

It gets easier when you can use pre-existing lore, but those games have already failed or are past their time. No game with lack of pre-existing lore has achieved a good standard, and that is what keeps pulling them down. Conan may have a good lore, but the game sure failed in presenting it to the player in an interesting way beyond the first 20 levels. The point is to make people interested about the lore. The better the lore is, the easier it gets, but simply being able to use pre-existing lore doesn't mean the end result is good. In those games, maybe LOTR aside, it wasn't.

Frankly, it was incredibly hard to care about the lore of Conan without having read the books. The game should be able to make good use of the lore without me having to introduce myself to it first, and Conan didn't do a good job at it. Where was the enemy that was approaching? Who were the protagonists? Where is the mystery? At least LOTR gave us the basic "evil is approaching hurrdurr" talk (...I think?)

There are PLENTY other MMOs in the market with a good story and good/complex lore, and a way more solid newbie experience than FFXIV. SE needs to get on a competitive level on that as well, or the relaunch will fail. It's that simple.

No, there aren't, and if there are, they are few and far between as well as old, or failures that didn't succeed in using the lore to their advantage.

[Abriael]

Nobody is neglecting the lower levels, as like I said, there is plenty to do in the lower levels and more is coming.

It's not nearly comparable to the low level experience in other games, sorry. Not even on the same planet.

It gets easier when you can use pre-existing lore

LOL. Any MMORPG (or any kind of game actually) developer will tell you that working with a pre-existing lore is *much* harder than working with an original lore. Not only you are subject to a lot more restrictions on what you can and cannot do, with that lore, but also you have to cope with the *established* image of that existing lore the fans have, and the fans are even more demanding and unforgiving than the actual owners of an IP. Final Fantasy XIV suffers partly from that problem because even if it's an original lore, it's still part of an established IP.

but those games have already failed or are past their time.

ALL of them are more successful than FFXIV at the moment. LOTRO is nowhere near a failure, and Star Wars Galaxies still has to be released.

This game has plenty competition, on every level, lore included. So it needs to gain a competitive edge on every level, lowbie experience included. At the moment, that's lacking. Sorely.