Please give Paladin access to Pugilist skill tree instead of Conjurer.

[Duelle]

Personally, I dislike the fact they flat got rid of Shell as its own spell. Yes it was merged because its simpler, but there was always something that made you feel good in XI when you saw the Pro & Shell animation ticking one by one across your party.

So you want an additional spell to cast for the sake of having an additional spell to cast...

That being said, I would rather see traits that effect your subjob abilities. Most jobs have a select few abilities that they gain access to via their cross-class. Paladin is not the only one who is stuck with less than stellar spells and some Jobs/Classes could use traits that change/buff/etc to make these abilities more fun and useful. Traiting Pro/Shell would be a step in the right direction.

Except you run the risk of creating a balance clusterf*ck if you make traits accessible to more than just the job they originate from.

Yet I would like to see traits that enhance abilities specifically for their use on other Jobs. Having a trait that changes Cure to cost more, produce more threat (1:1), change its potency to be effected by attack power (like the change to Second Wind), change the cast time to be faster to allow for movement and change the recast time. The spell can be the same but function in a manner that allows it to be an intricate part of the Paladin kit.

As I mentioned, PLD is designed around a modern MMO tank with utility on the side, where utility going unused does not break the job in any way, as the foundation it is built on is very solid.

We don't need cure as a mainstay for hate when we have the needed hate tools to do our job as tanks. We're not D&D paladins or WoW paladins; our faith does not manifest through awesome divine power with which to smite our foes. We don't summon giant glowy hammers out of the aether to hit people on the head with. We're par the course of Final Fantasy paladins, as they are knights with weak white magic. We currently fit that bill to the dot.

[niwaar]

@niwaar

WHM gets proshell. Its directly from Conjurer. Everything Conjurer has, WHM will also have, every spell and trait. So WHM's protect will be better than SCH's as it will also have shell. Its the same for every job. They have every skill and trait their original class has as far as we know.

This is in fact what I just said... Dunno where you were going with this.

To be entirely honest not many cross-class skills would do some classes any good. BLM and WHM get almost everything they need from their base class there is nothing from any other class other than other DoM That would even help WHM. They don't really need anything else. BLM gets a cure via Arcanist which is a good thing, but again other than the crit+ from pugilist. I don't think anything else would help.

This is incorrect. Many cross-class skills are good for the other jobs. Raging Strikes, Infernal Release anyone? Blood for Blood, Invigorate, Second Wind.. I could go on with the cross-class skills that are useful. The problem is that the only cross-class skills that are useful belong to the physical classes. The DoM have a pair from THM in the form of Swift/Surecast, but that is all.

So you want an additional spell to cast for the sake of having an additional spell to cast...

Yes, why not? I noted the reason why the spells were merged. But there is something to be said for the "fun" factor that is (at least for me) seeing and hearing shell go up on the party.

Except you run the risk of creating a balance clusterf*ck if you make traits accessible to more than just the job they originate from.

As I mentioned, PLD is designed around a modern MMO tank with utility on the side, where utility going unused does not break the job in any way, as the foundation it is built on is very solid.

I think you didn't fully understand where I was going for here. So let me try and explain it better. I do not want cross-class traits. I do not want to gain traits from other classes. That would be hard to balance yes. What I am asking for is JOB specific traits. As it is Traits are something we only gain from our Class, not our Job. We gain 5 abilities from our job and that is it. What I want to see is some Job Traits that enhance both abilities/spells we gain from both our Class and Job but also ones that enhance/alter spells & abilities we gain from our 2 synergy classes. Why can't a Paladin Job trait be to give the Paladin Pro/Shell? He wouldn't have it if he was merely a soloing Gladiator, but with the soul equipped he would buff those cross-class spells as well. The whole concept of the Job system is that we sacrifice the utility of being able to "equip" abilities from all classes and are enhanced by focusing on only 3. Why does that enhancement have to simply mean 5 abilities and a little damage/healing boost?

We don't need cure as a mainstay for hate when we have the needed hate tools to do our job as tanks. We're not D&D paladins or WoW paladins; our faith does not manifest through awesome divine power with which to smite our foes. We don't summon giant glowy hammers out of the aether to hit people on the head with. We're par the course of Final Fantasy paladins, as they are knights with weak white magic. We currently fit that bill to the dot.

We may not need cure as a mainstay for hate, but with an enhanced toolkit comes a deeper experience. Remember the days when a Paladin could hold hate on a number of mobs simply by curing themselves over and over? I am not advocating us being D&D Paladins, or even WoW Paladins. I would just love to see what they put in our kit to be more valuable than a token "lore" ability or two.

[Duelle]

Yes, why not? I noted the reason why the spells were merged. But there is something to be said for the "fun" factor that is (at least for me) seeing and hearing shell go up on the party.

You can try to pad your response with the F-word, but that's still a terrible reason for wanting a spell. If the job genuinely needed it because it was missing from its arsenal, I might support such a mindset.

Why does that enhancement have to simply mean 5 abilities and a little damage/healing boost?

Because the five abilities we do get are pretty good on their own in helping flesh out a job's role. I agree on the toipic of job traits, but not affecting cross-class abilities, rather adding mechanics to flesh out the jobs by enhancing their native class abilities or helping the job itself stand out from the class it stems from.

We may not need cure as a mainstay for hate, but with an enhanced toolkit comes a deeper experience. Remember the days when a Paladin could hold hate on a number of mobs simply by curing themselves over and over?

Yes, and looking back on it, I can tell you it was a terrible model on multiple levels.

This isn't correct. Please replay FF IV, Cecil may not be a replacement for a white mage (changes depending on progression in the story); however, his healing is also nothing to sneeze at.

I've played FFIV, and Cecil's white magic was a joke compared to Rosa's. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, someone in the other forums put it best by saying the only real use for Cecil's white magic was that it saved you a turn by having him cast stuff like Protect so that Rosa didn't have to.