More primals than elements?

[Taelia]

So assuming our latest http://gamerescape.com/2013/08/21/th...e-white-raven/ story to be true, with Anonymoose and Fernehalwes both on it..

It states that Garlemald first encountered Primals on the continent of Othard.

Now, I always assumed primals were linked to the elements, one each, but we already have six on Eorzea. So either some primals have competitors within their own elements, there are unknown elements, the same primal can be worshipped and summoned in multiple places, or it just moved to Eorzea after Othard was conquered.

Enough theories, I suppose, but figured it was a nice train of thought and felt like sharing.

[Anonymoose]

Now, I always assumed primals were linked to the elements, one each, but we already have six on Eorzea.

In Eorzea, there always tends to be that six elements - two polarities thing going on, and it pervades everything in their culture. They believe in a hell for each element with a seventh for oblivion, we're seeing six umbral eras with a seventh for the threat of oblivion, etc. This fits the pattern - but why? This might be explained when we learn more about the true nature of primals. I've got this conspiracy theory brewing that, perhaps, the attributes these beings take on when they manifest from concentrated aether is influenced by those who worship / believe in them. This would explain why, while not a primal, the mythical moogle king of legend was summoned forth like one, but we'll have to see where it goes in ARR. I'd love to hear some descriptions of Othardian primals, someday...

[zaviermhigo]

From not just a lore perspective, but from a logistical perspective, maybe we have Primals that have multiple elements, or who are astral and umbral thus using all 3. Like Valefor who could either use nonelemental dmg or multiple elements (think scathe). In X Valefor's yevon script was Mu, or emptiness. So I think that would be a cool way to go also. We know it takes crystals to summon Primals, but there is some room for loop holes, also like every one of the Twelve have two gods per element, maybe so do the primals. Lots of options here.

[NoloeTazier]

Essentially it's just easy for SE to give us the Primals we're use to. With Othard having Primals, it opens up expansions down the road and us experiencing even more Primals. But like Moose said, I'd love to hear about Othard's Primals..especially if they're Beastmen based or if they resemble our (future) FC Primal Summons.

[Taelia]

Well, we've already seen Siren concept art, it would not surprise me for her to be a full-fledged primal. Have heard nothing of her ever since, though.

[RolandDebreton]

I wondered after this too. I think that Eorzea will be a realm very soon that will literally have more Primals than Elements. We have two named Elder Primals, Bahamut and Odin. Then there is Fenrir, where does he fit in?

Maybe Bahamut is an Elder "Fire" Primal from Allag, a "ghost," that is not elementally locked, without living worshipers. Perhaps Odin is a formerly elemental "ghost" as well. My guess is Fenrir and a bevy of others will pop up from Final Fantasy archetypes.

My theory is that they really are heinotheistic beings. Heinotheism is a system that is really foreign to moderns but was pretty common in the ancient world. Basically, gods were seen as regional. There would be an ancient Mesopotamian god or system of gods, an Assyrian pantheon or singular Baal, a singluar Hebrew God, and so on. For many of the people these gods were almost like divine barons, each ruling their own little barony or dukedom. A wandering Assyrian might head into another region and he would still worship his god as his own, acknowledging the existence of others, but not the primacy of them over their particular region.

I think the Primals would be similar, there could be a fire Primal of the ancient world, Bahamut who is now faded (although still intensely powerful, well beyond even the modern Primal over Eorzea). There there is Ifrit, he is the localized Primal of fire for Eorzea centered in the worship of the Amal'ja. Meanwhile in Othard, there is Salamander, Phoenix or Maduin as the localized fire Primal summoned by dragon men or something. Perhaps in the centuries gone Ilsabard had a fire Primal of its own, Belias. They seem to be intensely jealous beings, with no particular concern for the elemental nature of any of the others, simply that they have worship.

Secondarily, I've wondered if there could be reduplication of elements even regionally like the Twelve have doubles of elements Astral and Umbral; Astral Fire and Umbral Fire.

[Anonymoose]

Perhaps in the centuries gone Ilsabard had a fire Primal of its own, Belias.

Speaking of Final Fantasy Online as installments that pay more-than-usual homage to the series as a whole, I think using the summons, aeons, etc. for Eorzea and the espers for "foreign" primals could be a really fun idea.

I'm not quite sure what's up with the elders; I've tried not to think about it because we'll know soon enough. The poster looks like Bahamut and Odin represent the astral and umbral, which would make sense considering all of the fire, wind, and lightning during Bahamut's release during End of an Era, but it might be a stretch...

[StarDrake]

Honestly, this is one I don't think requires too much thought - there are more Primals than elements because, in a series-meta sense, there've been more genjuu than elements for a very long time.

The only title to have more or less exactly one summoned monster per element was FF3 - that had Chocobo (for wind), Shiva, Ifrit, Titan, Ramuh, Odin, Leviathan, and Bahamut. (An interesting note is that, as of ARR, every single one of those summons has been introduced as a Primal sans Chocobo, who is instead a species :V and has been replaced in the line-up with Garuda, who has become an "iconic" summon for the online FFs specifically.) Even here, Leviathan and Shiva sort-of share an element and then FF4 ballooned out the list substantially - not even counting the item-drop summons, Sylph, Mist Dragon and Asura were all added to the list. 5 added even more, including icons like Carbuncle, Phoenix and Golem.

In 6 it got completely crazy-go-nuts; there was a summon for each element up to and including "elements" like poison or healing (the latter of which had multiple summons), there were multiple tri-elemental summons, multiple "ultimate-element" summons, of which Bahamut wasn't even the strongest... et cetera. At this point, if they continue to crib summons from games past as Primals, we're going to end up with a lot of repeated elements, simply because it's already an established tradition for there to be a number of such repeats.

From an in-universe perspective, though, it's very possible Moose's theory is correct - or that each continent has its own distinct summons for each element. They do seem to be local rather than global "deities", after all - but then we know so little of Othard or Ilsabard that it's a bit hard to say either way.

But yeah, I wouldn't think too hard on it simply because there've been a lot of summons with crossed elements for a very long time, franchise-wise, and there's going to be crosses here if they want to use more of the classic, remembered ones.

[RumiP]

I think it would be cool to have more than there are elements and some vying for control of the elements, maybe even working together.

Not quite as thought out as the rest of you, but it would make for more game content and maybe some interesting stories about primal interactions in lore.

[Ichi]

HMMM love this discussion.

Clearly there must be more Primals than elements as there already are explicitly with the implication of Bahamut.

So What I'm getting so far is:

the possibility of Repeat elemental Primals, Polarity Primers (dark/light)
non-elemental or multi-elemental Primals.

To add my own thoughts, I would say that it was never implied that a Primal absolutely 'has' to have some elemental alignment. Though I think an alignment of some kind is implied simply by their nature as deities representing aspects of the world.

I think someone like Bahamut is not an elemental Primal but a Dragon Primal (this is an alignment with a kind of beast not an element). At the same time I also feel Bahamut is Non-elemental.

Odin is tricky to pin down, But I would lean towards Polarity (dark primal) Who knows maybe even a human-kind Primal (elezen, lala, roeg, hyur, miq