The Monk Temple

[Naalya-Deix]

Common sense is also to be considered with maths, especially when it could be biassed.

With 2.10 GCD, True Strike is kind of equal to spamming twin snake each cycle (in fact just ahead and Exponentially better with Crit rising). This is the breakpoint GCD to aim for, since if you go to > 490 SS, you'll get poor Det and Crit stats while gaining ONLY 0.10 SEC. Many people didn't realise yet that Skill Speed efficiency is logaritmic cause of GL3.

More Skill Speed you have, less sec / ms you gain point by point with GL3, because SS is just mathematically insignificant compared to GL3.
There is a BiS that bring you to 373 SS (2.10 GCD), 500 + Crit and 290 Det. Also, Crit / Det has always been in ANY mmos the way to go for Melee fast attacker (synergies with AA).

[EasymodeX]

Lol.

Skill speed is obviously reduced significantly in value because it only applies to a fraction of the total damage output.

Likewise, crit rating is reduced in value because it only applies to crittable hits, and 20% of your hits already crit.

Hence, a full analysis will reduce the generic value of skill speed by [%AA + %OGCD], with some modeling assumptions for DOTs (better uptime, but fixed tick cycle is a statistical question), but it will also reduce the value of crit by the baseline crit. Which is higher when you include successful Bootshines.

I've posted a general approximate stat weight for Monks elsewhere already. For reference, it's:

w/ high Bootshine:

STR 1
DET 0.225
CRT 0.148
WD 7.536
SS 0.147

w/ no Bootshine:

STR 1
DET 0.226
CRT 0.165
WD 7.536
SS 0.147

[Allyrion]

Lol.

Skill speed is obviously reduced significantly in value because it only applies to a fraction of the total damage output.

Likewise, crit rating is reduced in value because it only applies to crittable hits, and 20% of your hits already crit.

Hence, a full analysis will reduce the generic value of skill speed by [%AA + %OGCD], with some modeling assumptions for DOTs (better uptime, but fixed tick cycle is a statistical question), but it will also reduce the value of crit by the baseline crit. Which is higher when you include successful Bootshines.

I've posted a general approximate stat weight for Monks elsewhere already. For reference, it's:

w/ high Bootshine:

STR 1
DET 0.225
CRT 0.148
WD 7.536
SS 0.147

w/ no Bootshine:

STR 1
DET 0.226
CRT 0.165
WD 7.536
SS 0.147

Unless I'm missing something, this doesn't make sense to me. You're basically saying crit has diminishing returns? That the more crit chance you have the less you value it?
I'm not the best at modelling stats, so I might just be misunderstanding something.

Everything I know about probability stats says it doesn't work that way. You may have a baseline of 20% crit, but if you get up to 40% crit you increased your damage by a set amount. Increases don't change depending on how much crit you've had before. Going from 98%-99% is the same dps increase as going from 10%-11%.

REASONING:
Effectively every percent of crit gained is equivalent to a percent of your damage that does 150% damage. It is a linear progression. Going from 20% to 40% is doubling the amount you crit. This is effectively a 50% increase on an EXTRA 20% of your damage, in addition to the 20% you had already.
The only diminishing returns on crit is when you pass 100%. Bootshine fits in this category. That being said....

COMPLICATION:
Internal Release isn't easily modeled (by me, at least). The reason for this is that it's a short term increase. We can say it increases crits by 7.5% on average per minute, but that's not really accurate. It is a short term buff so it doesn't balance. You can get a series of no crits or a string of full crits due to the IR. It's not as predictable because it's short term and these probability stats only balance out over the long term.
That's not to say it can't be formulated.

It should be noted however that since IR is not 100% increase, it can't be said that crit has little value to it. The relationship is complicated, but I'd need to see or know it was properly modeled before concluding that it effectively diminishes the value of crit.
The value of crit is outright reduced by Bootshine. This is true.

CONCLUSION:
Maybe you understood everything I said above. But I had to respond since you said

crit rating is reduced in value because it only applies to crittable hits, and 20% of your hits already crit.

This is just an overly simple statement that doesn't take into account to linear damage increase that crit provides.
If your model deems crit worth less cause of proper IR modeling, which is admittedly up 25% of the time, then I will understand.

It sounded more like, we already crit on 20% of our attacks, so any gained crit will only affects 80% of our damage.
That would be missing the point of how crit increases damage (as I said above).


I also have a quick question about your stat references.
From what I know, the stat budget gives more and less of certain stats right. For example, you can get more SS on a piece than you can get DET. Crit is in the middle.
If that's the case, do you know the ratio? Because it seems that SS is favored with high Bootshine over crit. It may even be favored with no Bootshine since you can get more of it?

[Herrstarr]

Wish mnk had some TP generation attack, doing turn 5 at the moment and keep going out of TP all the time >.<, Invigorate is not enough :'(

[Xell]

Wish mnk had some TP generation attack, doing turn 5 at the moment and keep going out of TP all the time >.<, Invigorate is not enough :'(

Get as little skill speed as possible.

[EasymodeX]

I'm not the best at modelling stats, so I might just be misunderstanding something.

Everything I know about probability stats says it doesn't work that way. You may have a baseline of 20% crit, but if you get up to 40% crit you increased your damage by a set amount.

You're focusing too much on stats and damage; the question at hand is the value of the stats as they contribute to damage.

If you have 10,000,000 strength and 0% chance to crit, how much value do you get from +1 str? Nearly nothing. How much value do you get from +1 crit? A heck of a lot.

If you have 10 strength and 90% chance to crit, how much value do you get from +1 str? A lot. +1 crit? Very little.

Optimizing stats on gear is about relative increase to your damage. If your class had 50 autocritting abilities and a baseline 80% chance to crit because SquareEnix says so, then how much value do you get from crit? Wouldn't you want to buff your base damage instead to take advantage of that crit?

Another way to look at it is that you get linear gains from +crit or +ss. Wouldn't you rather get superior geometric gains by multiplying your crit or ss?

The largest area coverage from 2 linear values is always a square, not a rectangle.

Yes, most normal stats in MMO mechanics have diminishing marginal utility. Or soft diminishing returns in terms of value.

Crit is a chronic offender because plebs love to see big numbers and categorically ignore the fact that if they already have a ton of it, they should invest elsewhere.

Edit: Check this out; I put a lot of tender loving care into it: http://imgur.com/GpD1fh4

[Allyrion]

You're focusing too much on stats and damage; the question at hand is the value of the stats as they contribute to damage.

So you're talking about relative stat relations. That makes it clearer. This is where I misunderstood.
For monks, doesn't that give more value to crit?
By the same relation though, that gives a lot of value to crit. Our SS is off the charts compared to other classes since our base SS is affected by GL3.

GL3 is equivalent to roughly 400 skill speed. Add that our innate SS. Our crit should relatively be much higher, even with IR right?
I'd like a proper crit formula to get into this. I'm pretty sure 100 crit = 8% is not accurate.

Thanks for your reply anyway. At least I understand what you meant now.
This discussion also feels a little moot since there aren't that many gear choices anyway.

[EasymodeX]

By the same relation though, that gives a lot of value to crit. Our SS is off the charts compared to other classes since our base SS is affected by GL3.

That would be true if the "speed enhancement" from GL operated the same way as SS. It doesn't.

GL3 is equivalent to roughly 400 skill speed.

Specifically, this isn't very true.

However, the basic concept you mentioned is accurate.

... which is why Monks actually have a pretty good crit stat weight with 0 bootshine use despite having a traited IR.

I'd like a proper crit formula to get into this. I'm pretty sure 100 crit = 8% is not accurate.

The current formulas use 0.0693% * crit rating = crit%. Based on data compiled from beta: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id...riticalHitRate

[Powercow]

Crit is a chronic offender because plebs love to see big numbers and categorically ignore the fact that if they already have a ton of it, they should invest elsewhere.

In what current set can anyone actually get "a ton of it"? I'd really like to see this theoretical set of gear from the future.

And I showed my work. Your theory is fine. I integrated it above before you even posted it. The theory, however, does not have a significant impact on the way the class functions given the current level of gear. If we're all in ilvl 120 equipment and we're rolling with 40+% crit, then yes, your theory might actually make Skillspeed not a terrible stat. But as it stands, in no way, fight, gear setup, or non-terrible rotation does Skillspeed come even close to Crit in terms of its usefulness.

[EasymodeX]

And I showed my work.

Your "work" is asinine because you don't understand how to assess the value of marginal stat gains. Your entire "work" section doesn't even answer the question and uses an incorrect stat comparison and baseline since you have a half-assed understanding of what you're talking about. A little bit of knowledge is more dangerous and more prone to error than pure ignorance.

Your theory is fine.

I don't have a theory. I have cyclical model that simulates a hard rotation and models damage modifiers and statistical crit rates. The results are as they are.

But you don't even need to go that far. You need to simply have a coherent understanding of how to measure the +10 crit on a piece of gear under consideration.

in no way, fight, gear setup, or non-terrible rotation does Skillspeed come even close to Crit in terms of its usefulness.

If you use Bootshine at maximum potential, don't macro on-GCD abilities, and press buttonz properly, you will get relatively similar returns from CRT as SS. Any less efficiency with Bootshine and CRT pulls ahead. The TP consideration, in addition, results in a situation where players should lean towards CRT in all situations where the two are offered equally.