BLM

[jmdatcs]

So if you cast thunder II and a thundercloud procs, you can hit Thunder I, II or III and they will all do the same damage. There's no "bonus". Is using Thunder III for procs, putting up Thunder III's dot(instead of re-applying Thunder II's) and then that turns all future Thundercloud procs into the 345 potency instead of 295, until you hard cast thunder II again?

I'm not seeing the benefit of losing 50 potency per cloud proc for .5 seconds of cast time(outside situations with tons of movement).

I think the argument about the time was more about time spent sitting at full MP, and not spamming fire, than it was about movement. But I have only seen conjecture, no math yet, but it seems possible that getting back to fire spam .5 sec quicker might be better than a few more tics and a more frequent/potent proc.

[Elvine]

I really am curious where the idea of Thunder II cast + Thunder III for procs came from. Do people have data on this? The tool-tip explicitly states if you use Thunder II for the dot, your thundercloud procs will have a 295 potency no matter what rank thunder spell you use to trigger it. Whereas using Thunder III gives a 345 potency thundercloud proc, again no matter what rank use you to trigger it.

So if you cast thunder II and a thundercloud procs, you can hit Thunder I, II or III and they will all do the same damage. There's no "bonus". Is using Thunder III for procs, putting up Thunder III's dot(instead of re-applying Thunder II's) and then that turns all future Thundercloud procs into the 345 potency instead of 295, until you hard cast thunder II again?

I'm not seeing the benefit of losing 50 potency per cloud proc for .5 seconds of cast time(outside situations with tons of movement).

"Grants a 5% chance that after each damage over time tick inflicted by any Thunder spell, the next Thunder, Thunder II, or Thunder III will add its full damage over time amount to its initial damage, have no cast time, and cost no MP."

I don't see anywhere in the tooltip that it states a set base potency on proc. Due to not stating a base potency, the clear choice here is the highest one.. which would be Thunder III.

Keep in mind when you overlap thunder debuffs they do not merge, you will lose the dps on the remaining ticks from the "refresh."

[HoroBoro]

"Grants a 5% chance that after each damage over time tick inflicted by any Thunder spell, the next Thunder, Thunder II, or Thunder III will add its full damage over time amount to its initial damage, have no cast time, and cost no MP."

I don't see anywhere in the tooltip that it states a set base potency on proc. Due to not stating a base potency, the clear choice here is the highest one.. which would be Thunder III.

Keep in mind when you overlap thunder debuffs they do not merge, you will lose the dps on the remaining ticks from the "refresh."

You forgot to bold one extra word. It makes a big difference. See: here

Read Descriptions for Thunder and friends. Specifically states that, if you cast Thunder I, you will do a 240 potency for the Thundercloud even if you use Thunder 3. I haven't done tests but, I see no reason for tooltips to not be telling the truth.

[Hystify]

You forgot to bold one extra word. It makes a big difference. See: here

Read Descriptions for Thunder and friends. Specifically states that, if you cast Thunder I, you will do a 240 potency for the Thundercloud even if you use Thunder 3. I haven't done tests but, I see no reason for tooltips to not be telling the truth.

The tooltips for the individual Thunder spells are inaccurate. Or rather, you would want to focus on the tooltip for thundercloud:

Grants a 5% chance that after each damage over time tick inflicted by any Thunder spell, the next Thunder, Thunder II, or Thunder III will add its full damage over time amount to its initial damage, have no cast time, and cost no MP.

If you test it in-game, you would find that it actually holds true.

When you get a thundercloud proc, if you mouseover the tooltips, you would see that the first line of the tooltip changes to Deals lightning damage with a potency of 240/295/340, respectively for T1, T2 and T3.

Further testing on dummies also shows that a Thunder III thundercloud proc does more damage than a Thunder thundercloud proc. In my case, Thunder III does around ~750 dmg, whereas Thunder only does ~500 dmg.

[-Snow]

"Grants a 5% chance that after each damage over time tick inflicted by any Thunder spell, the next Thunder, Thunder II, or Thunder III will add its full damage over time amount to its initial damage, have no cast time, and cost no MP."

I don't see anywhere in the tooltip that it states a set base potency on proc. Due to not stating a base potency, the clear choice here is the highest one.. which would be Thunder III.

Not sure which Tooltip is right, but you should check out the Thunder I,II,II tooltips.

Thunder III
Additional Effect: 5% chance after each tick that potency of next Thunder, Thunder II, or Thunder III will be 340, have no cast time, and cost no MP

Thunder II
Additional Effect: 5% chance after each tick that potency of next Thunder, Thunder II, or Thunder III will be 295, have no cast time, and cost no MP

Thunder I
Additional Effect: 5% chance after each tick that potency of next Thunder, Thunder II, or Thunder III will be 240, have no cast time, and cost no MP

Keep in mind when you overlap thunder debuffs they do not merge, you will lose the dps on the remaining ticks from the "refresh."

Also that is not exactly true, you should check out how DoTs/HoTs are working in this game. In FFXIV:ARR you could even get a little DPS BOOST with DoT clipping. (random)

Here's a guide which shows pretty clear how DoTs/HoTs are working in this game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQGGTKgL8-g

[NZ_Player]

i think more than most here are assuming hardcasting a higher rank spell will do more overall damage
this is incorrect

[Allyrion]

i think more than most here are assuming hardcasting a higher rank spell will do more overall damage
this is incorrect

I cast Thunder III cause it looks better.
I'm also fairly certain things like trying to hold out a thundercloud proc to reduce dot clipping or maximizing your firestarter procs by interrupting your fire 1 casts (or especially blizzard III when going into regen) makes a much bigger dps difference than this.

The tooltip on the thundercloud buff implies square probably meant for thundercloud to be determined by what was hard casting. If it's not that in-game, they'll probably fix it.
Thunder 2 hardcast + Thunder 3 thundercloud proc might add something interesting if the proc wasn't so damned low. I think this whole debate is a bit overstated, even for serious min-maxers.

[HoroBoro]

Further testing on dummies also shows that a Thunder III thundercloud proc does more damage than a Thunder thundercloud proc. In my case, Thunder III does around ~750 dmg, whereas Thunder only does ~500 dmg.

That's good information - I'll have to do tests myself, but if it's true I'll have to change my setup.

I cast Thunder III cause it looks better.

100% agree. I'd like a Master Spark BM skill... very, very disappointed there's none currently.

[Foullacy]

I cast Thunder III cause it looks better.
I'm also fairly certain things like trying to hold out a thundercloud proc to reduce dot clipping or maximizing your firestarter procs by interrupting your fire 1 casts (or especially blizzard III when going into regen) makes a much bigger dps difference than this.

The tooltip on the thundercloud buff implies square probably meant for thundercloud to be determined by what was hard casting. If it's not that in-game, they'll probably fix it.
Thunder 2 hardcast + Thunder 3 thundercloud proc might add something interesting if the proc wasn't so damned low. I think this whole debate is a bit overstated, even for serious min-maxers.

If you read the tooltips for Thunder I - III you would see that the potency increases with each rank that is hard cast to trigger Thundercloud.

That being said, it is still optimal to use Thunder I because it syncs up with the final tick of regen in Umbral Ice allowing you to maximize your casts of Fire. If you're casting Thunder II or III during regen phase you're clipping regen and wasting time you could be casting Fire instead.

Now if you went into regen phase with Firestarter, you would probably see a DPS increase using Thunder II over Thunder I since you have to hold off on Fire III for a few seconds to get the final tick of regen. Consuming Firestarter before regen phase is ideal because if you hard cast Fire III with 3 stacks of Umbral Ice you can cheat a hastened Fire.