Yoshi-p says: "Button pressing is stressful." ....

[Fatestorm]

Fishing is not a consumable class like BTN and MIN.

But...................................it was. By consumable class I assume you mean gathering class. That's what it was. Until they decided to do...this....to the job.

If it's the case that you describe, then it's kind of a unique situation, eh? Alchemist didn't change from a crafting class into a class built around the personal achievement of maxing the log for healing Eorzea's sick NPCs. Monk didn't change from a battle class to a personal challenge class about practicing self-discipline, mastering martial forms, and leading a life of reflective virtue.

We get very well the direction that the dev team wants to "take" the class, and we're not very happy, for a very fair and logical reason--none of us signed up for that when we leveled the class in the first place.

Sure, the dev team could surprise us all with a whopper of a fun and profitable class. But given that literally ALL the evidence is to the contrary (a class to be done 'in your free time' only, trash items that won't sell, 'personal achievements and logs' which, for the life of me, seem no different at all from the other achievements and logs on every other class), please excuse me for saying I'd kindly like the time, gil, and experience points that I sunk into this GATHERING job back, so that I could put it in another GATHERING job.

Hell I worked at fisher and I only got it to 47 (I think). Poor Llen and a lot of my fellow fishers got the freaking Luminary Rod. And now they're nerfing the job into obsolescence?

We want to *gather*. "Relaxing" is like "having fun" in a video game. It's something YOU the player make yourself. It makes no sense to say "this job is for relaxing"... it implies that the other jobs AREN'T for relaxing? It's as silly as making a job for "having fun". Imagine them saying "We envision Arcanist to be a class you play when you want to have fun." It's exactly as insulting as saying "We envision Fisher to be a class you play when you want to relax."

How about sticking to basics. "We envision Fisher to be a gathering class that collects fish and other fruits of the sea from Eorzea's lakes and rivers. Many goldsmiths, culinarians, and alchemists find the fish that Eorzea's pullers procure to be indispensable resources for their trades."

[LlenCoram]

But...................................it was. By consumable class I assume you mean gathering class. That's what it was. Until they decided to do...this....to the job.

If it's the case that you describe, then it's kind of a unique situation, eh? Alchemist didn't change from a crafting class into a class built around the personal achievement of maxing the log for healing Eorzea's sick NPCs. Monk didn't change from a battle class to a personal challenge class about practicing self-discipline, mastering martial forms, and leading a life of reflective virtue.

We get very well the direction that the dev team wants to "take" the class, and we're not very happy, for a very fair and logical reason--none of us signed up for that when we leveled the class in the first place.

Sure, the dev team could surprise us all with a whopper of a fun and profitable class. But given that literally ALL the evidence is to the contrary (a class to be done 'in your free time' only, trash items that won't sell, 'personal achievements and logs' which, for the life of me, seem no different at all from the other achievements and logs on every other class), please excuse me for saying I'd kindly like the time, gil, and experience points that I sunk into this GATHERING job back, so that I could put it in another GATHERING job.

Hell I worked at fisher and I only got it to 47 (I think). Poor Llen and a lot of my fellow fishers got the freaking Luminary Rod. And now they're nerfing the job into obsolescence?

We want to *gather*. "Relaxing" is like "having fun" in a video game. It's something YOU the player make yourself. It makes no sense to say "this job is for relaxing"... it implies that the other jobs AREN'T for relaxing? It's as silly as making a job for "having fun". Imagine them saying "We envision Arcanist to be a class you play when you want to have fun." It's exactly as insulting as saying "We envision Fisher to be a class you play when you want to relax."

How about sticking to basics. "We envision Fisher to be a gathering class that collects fish and other fruits of the sea from Eorzea's lakes and rivers. Many goldsmiths, culinarians, and alchemists find the fish that Eorzea's pullers procure to be indispensable resources for their trades."

Perfectly said. This whole thing is insulting, and makes assumptions of our playstyle with zero basis.

[HiirNoivl]

The actual "gameplay" aspect sounds kinda pointless to me as well. How many people are really going to spend time and money experimenting with different rods and bait, rather than just looking up what they need on the web?

Kinda like in 1.0?

What you don't realize is that when you fished in 1.0, didn't make hardly any gil at all, you can fish for hours and the most you could get is the limited amount of the same kind of fish all the time by standing and staring at the same scenery all day long. You got no achievements outside of luminary rods and occasional title and a inventory that was full of fish that, outside of crystals, had no value whatsoever and even in the case of shards it would take even hours more of pointless grinding to squeeze out your crystals and shards from the fish. There were alchemy for recipes for potions and food that no one used. Fish was a tool to grind out your luminary Alembic or get to Alc 50 and never touch again unless you were fishing for something not-fish like Hamlet items or say Catalysts for melding.

It's impossible to further devalue a class that had so little value in the first place. Yoshi P has decided to take it in a different direction. The variety of fish and environments is all unlimited now because there doesn't have to be set recipes for every type of fish out there, but there will have to be lures, bait, rods, and gear for each varied environment to catch them.

And yet you scream you don't want to do it because you feel like you can't make the gil that you probably didn't make in the first place.

There will be no pointless grinding in ARR, if you're fishing you're going to get achievements and feedback from the game. I swear to you this is true. The game is almost giddy in giving you things, much to the consternation of people who are used to a stoic "schoolmarm" of an achievement system. Such a feedback system is freakin' addictive.

I'm trying to convince you that it's not going to be that bad. I really don't know how better to explain how excited I am to find fishing, but if you won't be convinced now at least TRY to play it in Phase 4. lol

[LlenCoram]

Kinda like in 1.0?

What you don't realize is that when you fished in 1.0, didn't make hardly any gil at all, you can fish for hours and the most you could get is the limited amount of the same kind of fish all the time by standing and staring at the same scenery all day long. You got no achievements outside of luminary rods and occasional title and a inventory that was full of fish that, outside of crystals, had no value whatsoever and even in the case of shards it would take even hours more of pointless grinding to squeeze out your crystals and shards from the fish. There were alchemy for recipes for potions and food that no one used. Fish was a tool to grind out your luminary Alembic or get to Alc 50 and never touch again unless you were fishing for something not-fish like Hamlet items or say Catalysts for melding.

It's impossible to further devalue a class that had so little value in the first place. Yoshi P has decided to take it in a different direction. The variety of fish and environments is all unlimited now because there doesn't have to be set recipes for every type of fish out there, but there will have to be lures, bait, rods, and gear for each varied environment to catch them.

And yet you scream you don't want to do it because you feel like you can't make the gil that you probably didn't make in the first place.

There will be no pointless grinding in ARR, if you're fishing you're going to get achievements and feedback from the game. I swear to you this is true. The game is almost giddy in giving you things, much to the consternation of people who are used to a stoic "schoolmarm" of an achievement system. Such a feedback system is freakin' addictive.

I'm trying to convince you that it's not going to be that bad. I really don't know how better to explain how excited I am to find fishing, but if you won't be convinced now at least TRY to play it in Phase 4. lol

But there was still player interaction. It wasn't much mind you, but there was still something to do. Staring at the scenery for hours was fine because we at least had a few buttons to press. This new system makes it sound like beyond choosing our rod and bait at the start, we'll be doing literally nothing but waiting for the fish to jump into our laps. A personal achievement implies we worked for that achievement. None of the personal achievements we get with this system will be worth anything because none of it will have been worked for. Yoshi wanted a more realistic fishing? Then let us fight the fish. Let us actually have control over whether or not we get that fish. I'm sure catching things will be just as randomized as botany is, which means that we'll have no control.

I don't see what's wrong with fish being useful either. I fished to help my friends. I always had tonnes of fish ready for the alchemists or culinarians in my shell. Now... I'll be able to whip out a salmon and say, "ohh mine is 19 inches long I win." Who cares?

It's not about the gil for all of us. Some of us want a mechanic where we're not forced to just stare at the screen with absolutely zero control over whether we catch the fish or not.

[Efrye]

What you don't realize is that when you fished in 1.0, didn't make hardly any gil at all [...]

Several million gil on my retainers beg to differ. I made plenty of money selling corals, northern pikes, ash tuna, catalysts, dye, as well as crafting rare alchemy stuff when there was an opportunity and using my own fish to level cooking. Fishing was plenty useful and profitable, you just had to know the market. And it's not just the personal profit either. Pther players would regularly ask me to fish something up for them because they needed it for a quest or because it was needed for a synth. Bots made for a tough competition, but there was definitely value in fishing.

That being said, I completely agree that it was a bore. There's no way I would've managed to get it to 50 if it wasn't for the existence of awesome audio books I could listen to while jigging away. But as others mentioned before, simplifying the class to the point of irrelevance is not a good solution, especially not for those who invested all this time in fishing in 1.x. To me, mining and logging in ARR is just as boring as it was in 1.x, if not even more so. Would you be ok with it if they scrapped those classes too and instead gave you a checklist with rare flowers and shiny stones to find?

There will be no pointless grinding in ARR, if you're fishing you're going to get achievements and feedback from the game. I swear to you this is true. The game is almost giddy in giving you things, much to the consternation of people who are used to a stoic "schoolmarm" of an achievement system. Such a feedback system is freakin' addictive.

It's certainly true that the game is showering you with instant-gratification every 20 seconds. But whether or not that's addictive in a good way - or addictive at all - is highly subjective. Especially in MMOs of this "modern" design that reward you for listening to a tutorial, clicking on some shiny spots on the ground or walking 20 yalms from A to B, individual achievements lose more and more of their value. If getting these achievements is not tied to an enjoyable activity nor used to advance my character, then fishing is not off to a great start.

Just to make it clear, I'm not saying fishing is going to be horrible and worthless. I'm just saying that, to me, every piece of information released so far makes it sound like it will be.

[Mjollnir]

It's not about the gil for all of us. Some of us want a mechanic where we're not forced to just stare at the screen with absolutely zero control over whether we catch the fish or not.

Yeah, but 1.0 was the same, but with a few button-presses. The fish was decided by the server as soon as you cast the line, the only control you had was not getting it by screwing up the timing on the button-press, which no-one did, unless they suddenly found themselves in a lapse of concentration because they were doing something else.

XI's fish-battle was also a false 'game', once you'd got the hang of it after an hour or two. You were either going to win the fight or lose, and that was decided by the server when you cast your line (again, unless you were asleep).

I fished all the way in LotRO - it was cast a line and wait. I enjoyed it. Yes, essentially it was playing a RNG, and the trophy fish and special catches came out randomly depending on your location and probably bait (it's been four years or so - forgive me the details). I still got an endorphin rush when the description rolled up in my chat log, despite having used no skill and minimal research. Fishing in both FFs have been the same as that - no skill, minimal research, but with extra button-presses or stick movements and in LotRO, FFXI and FFXIV, I've enjoyed it all.

I think the only way you can make fishing genuinely interactive is to drop in an abstract minigame, and it sounds like we want something skill-based rather than luck-based (RNG). Perhaps something to test reflexes, like a random-timer jerk on the rod that throws up on-screen the (randomised) ability you must use (a 'pull') that you have to press within a certain amount of time (that is dependent on your Gathering ability) in order to make the catch. Higher level fish have a lower time window and many more possible abilities, perhaps even requiring a successful combination of more than one of them. Luminary rods and other equipment with +Gathering increase the time window.

Yeah, I think I nailed an awesome fishing minigame right there.

[LlenCoram]

Yeah, but 1.0 was the same, but with a few button-presses. The fish was decided by the server as soon as you cast the line, the only control you had was not getting it by screwing up the timing on the button-press, which no-one did, unless they suddenly found themselves in a lapse of concentration because they were doing something else.

XI's fish-battle was also a false 'game', once you'd got the hang of it after an hour or two. You were either going to win the fight or lose, and that was decided by the server when you cast your line (again, unless you were asleep).

I fished all the way in LotRO - it was cast a line and wait. I enjoyed it. Yes, essentially it was playing a RNG, and the trophy fish and special catches came out randomly depending on your location and probably bait (it's been four years or so - forgive me the details). I still got an endorphin rush when the description rolled up in my chat log, despite having used no skill and minimal research. Fishing in both FFs have been the same as that - no skill, minimal research, but with extra button-presses or stick movements and in LotRO, FFXI and FFXIV, I've enjoyed it all.

I think the only way you can make fishing genuinely interactive is to drop in an abstract minigame, and it sounds like we want something skill-based rather than luck-based (RNG). Perhaps something to test reflexes, like a random-timer jerk on the rod that throws up on-screen the (randomised) ability you must use (a 'pull') that you have to press within a certain amount of time (that is dependent on your Gathering ability) in order to make the catch. Higher level fish have a lower time window and many more possible abilities, perhaps even requiring a successful combination of more than one of them. Luminary rods and other equipment with +Gathering increase the time window.

Yeah, I think I nailed an awesome fishing minigame right there.

I agree, there isn't much difference between the old system and the new system if you break it down. The same is true of the new botany/mining. In 1.0 you'd choose your notch/swing point, then the hot or cold minigame. What item you were going to get was randomized at the start, then it was up to you to get it. In the new system, you choose the item right off the bat and it's randomized whether you get it or not. At the very base of it, they're the same thing. The major difference lies in the agency the player is given. In the old system, if you lost an item it was entirely on your head (unless gathering fatigue was active). In the new system, the game decides.

That's why I've been clamoring for a way for us to actually control how we get the fish. I've been doing the same for the new botany. I want it to be a system where if I lose a fish, it's completely my fault. Even something as simple as pressing enter when the fish bites, visible through some animation (like the old fishing rod dip), would be enough. Match some simple mechanic that gives the player control with whatever weird stuff they're planning (fishing in clouds) and bait/rod/weather/time management, and you'd have a phenomenal little class that would be fun to play, and with the mechanics where YOU are in charge of whether you catch or fish or not in place, all the "personal achievements" they're trumpeting would actually have worth. The minigame you describe would be perfect.

As it is, I don't much feel like congratulating my computer for playing my class for me.

[HiirNoivl]

Several million gil on my retainers beg to differ. I made plenty of money selling corals, northern pikes, ash tuna, catalysts, dye, as well as crafting rare alchemy stuff when there was an opportunity and using my own fish to level cooking. Fishing was plenty useful and profitable, you just had to know the market.

The vast majority of fish were not profitable. Some fish were valuable yes, but don't come saying that you didn't NPC the majority of what you had or spend hours grinding your fish into something that would sell.

And it's not just the personal profit either. Pther players would regularly ask me to fish something up for them because they needed it for a quest or because ...

They didn't want to do it.

That being said, I completely agree that it was a bore. There's no way I would've managed to get it to 50 if it wasn't for the existence of awesome audio books I could listen to while jigging away.

So you weren't even engaged in the game. This is not what Yoshi P or the fishing dev team wants.

Would you be ok with it if they scrapped those classes too and instead gave you a checklist with rare flowers and shiny stones to find?

It's funny, I don't see much talk about achievements being attached to BTN or MIN. Only with fishing... so...

If getting these achievements is not tied to an enjoyable activity nor used to advance my character, then fishing is not off to a great start.

You just admitted that it wasn't enjoyable in 1.0 and you still did it.

Just to make it clear, I'm not saying fishing is going to be horrible and worthless. I'm just saying that, to me, every piece of information released so far makes it sound like it will be.

That's because your preconceived notions are colored by the idea that fishing in 1.0 was some sort of standard of good game play. It wasn't.

But there was still player interaction. It wasn't much mind you, but there was still something to do. Staring at the scenery for hours was fine because we at least had a few buttons to press.

No, it was not. Just like in BTN, eventually twitch reactions and muscle memory made it an automated process. It's not an amazing leap to completely zone out while fishing.

This new system makes it sound like beyond choosing our rod and bait at the start, we'll be doing literally nothing

Rods and baits will not be as simple as you make it sound. In 1.0 it was simple because your rod and bait didn't matter as much as it should have. With the addition of rods, weather conditions, water types, bait fish and lures... and don't forget, gathering now has GP based actions. Have you played Gatheirng at all in ARR? Then you should know that you have to decide which abilities you need to use to get the type of fish you want is also dependent on the stats of your gear and the amount of GP you need to spend. Tree Whisperer made using gathering food relevant, unlike in 1.0 where gathering food was a pretty much a waste and all benefits were hypothetical after level 38.

Fishing will go from mindless clicking and 0 effort to something with actual depth.

A personal achievement implies we worked for that achievement. None of the personal achievements we get with this system will be worth anything because none of it will have been worked for. Yoshi wanted a more realistic fishing? Then let us fight the fish. Let us actually have control over whether or not we get that fish. I'm sure catching things will be just as randomized as botany is, which means that we'll have no control.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Botany is about as random as DPS is for DoW. People who were complaining about running out of GP between trees is a testament to that. (They don't use GP rings and GP food) They've made it even less random in Phase 3.

I don't see what's wrong with fish being useful either. I fished to help my friends. I always had tonnes of fish ready for the alchemists or culinarians in my shell. Now... I'll be able to whip out a salmon and say, "ohh mine is 19 inches long I win." Who cares?

It's not about the gil for all of us. Some of us want a mechanic where we're not forced to just stare at the screen with absolutely zero control over whether we catch the fish or not.

Look at Botany, look at Miner.

We have far more control over what we get than we ever had in 1.0. You know this.

Fishing will be no different. There are already some recipes for fish, but fishers will have many more things to do. It's frustrating to me because fishing will have more things to do than BTN and MIN and the only ones complaining about it is the fishers?! What the twelve? lol

[Mjollnir]

Even something as simple as pressing enter when the fish bites, visible through some animation (like the old fishing rod dip), would be enough.

See that's not enough for me, because it's highly unlikely that anyone who has spend half an hour fishing will have a problem hitting the button at the right time. And once you've levelled to 50, you could literally do that while watching TV.

It's why I suggested a randomised response request after a randomised amount of time with a strict time limit for the response. Sure, if you've played for 50 levels, your reactions should be somewhat honed, but the response you have to give is unable to be predicted and your brain has to do that little bit of extra work to recognise the required command and tell your fingers to move to the correct place - each and every pull is different (er, unless it's randomly the same). It's more like a brain-training exercise and yes, is "more stressful".

Just saying that, imo, pressing enter each time the fish bites is akin to not pressing anything at all, from the perspective of brain action. Either it should go one way, with no action or go the other way, with an actual minigame, but as it was is less fun that both (imo imo imo)

[Efrye]

Come on Hiir, you're not even trying now.

Fishing was not fun in 1.0 yet I still did it because it did have a value apart from achievements. I could use it to level other crafts and I could use it to help others achieve their goals. Others who did not want to level fishing, yes, just like I didn't want to level mining or botany. I helped them, they helped me, it was great.

And I could indeed also use it for a steady income of gil. Just like with all other classes - crafting, gathering and combat - I didn't make tons of money all the time. From level 1-30 or so, I used most of the fish for cooking, so I can't say much about that level range. But once I was too good a chef to be content with making sea sand and a good enough fisherman to catch all the tasty stuff at Cedarwood and such, the gil income was pretty good. It changed from "pretty good" to "OMGIMRICH" when they introduced materia catalysts and dye, which both couldn't be botted that easily.

With that out of the way, let's see what's next... Ah, yes!
No, I do not have "the idea that fishing in 1.0 was some sort of standard of good game play". In fact, I clearly stated that it was not. I also clearly stated that there are good ways to improve it (see the posts above for just a few examples), but a system that's basically "Click here for an achievement!" is not one of them.

Lastly, I'm not sure what you're getting at with those botany/mining achievements. Of course there will be achievements for those classes, why wouldn't there be? Or do you mean we should be happy that fishing is probably getting more of them? Because... I think that's completely beside the point people are trying to make here. But maybe I'm just missing your point.