AOE Rings

[Abriael]

And what I am saying is that SE is too lazy to properly design the encounters to accommodate all classes to be viable in all encounters, hence my claim in my first post in this thread

I'm sorry, but if there's a term that doesn't in any way apply to the entire history of Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn is "Lazy". What you're saying is inconsequential and inaccurate, and shows a dire ignorance on game design.

When talking balance, less is more. The more variables are added, the further from actual balance a game will land and the more the nerf/buff cycle will continue aggravating players. Considering that we're talking about something that is simply a gimmick that becomes absolutely irrelevant after casting the first spell, it's in no way worth keeping.

[Volker_Mateus]

Well to get back on topic, I'm pretty sure you will be able to toggle them on and off. In the live letter it showed how many options the game has for gameplay and every other aspect. Not putting in a toggle for it would be silly. Hopefully there will be an option to toggle for players and mobs which I'm pretty sure there will be.

[Preypacer]

When talking balance, less is more. The more variables are added, the further from actual balance a game will land and the more the nerf/buff cycle will continue aggravating players. Considering that we're talking about something that is simply a gimmick that becomes absolutely irrelevant after casting the first spell, it's in no way worth keeping.

It doesn't have to be a gimmick, though.

Nor does it have to be imbalanced.

We're talking about an individual, in Naoki Yoshida, leading a team of 300+ designers and developers, who managed to not only take 1.0, turn the story in a new direction leading up to a conclusion that could have been the intended one all along (though we know it wasn't), it blended so well. Meanwhile, they were simultaneously re-creating an entirely new incarnation of the game practically from the ground up. And we're to believe that with all those minds, and all that creativity, experience and knowledge, not even a single person on that entire team could conceive of a way to implement the elemental wheel in a way that would be useful, even strategic, without imbalancing the game/classes/jobs?

Sorry. Not buying it. Not for a second.

Tell me it was an omission of choice - that Yoshi-P decided to do away with the Elemental Wheel simply because he didn't have any interest in it and I'll say "Yeah, I can believe that". But to say "we couldn't think of a way to do it without introducing imbalance", or "without it being a mere gimmick" seems more like a cop out to me. A half-hearted rationalization.

After reading this thread a few hours ago while on break at work and realizing that Yoshi-P's reasoning sounded off to me, I started thinking about it. I came up with a few ways that,even if not "perfect" on their face, could certainly be a solid base to build some feasible options from.

The first thing I thought was "Okay Yoshi-P's main concern was people being excluded from content for not having the right class/job with the right abilities/skills. So, whatever I think up, that consideration has to be at the root of it".

One solution I thought of... Choose skills from each Class/Job and assign each of them an attribute for one of the elements.

"But what about some attacks doing more damage than others?" Design them so that doesn't happen. Give each a ceiling of how much damage it can do.

Or, better yet, take the damage factor out of it completely. Make the use of Elements more about utility. Using skills/abilities/spells with certain elemental attributes, alone or in certain combinations, will have certain effects on an enemy, or the environment, or both.

It might weaken the enemy's defense. It might provoke a certain response or action out of the enemy which can be exploited for more damage. It might weaken the enemy's attacks, either certain ones, or all in general. It might stun, slow or otherwise enfeeble the enemy.

Perhaps the enemy would change elements throughout a battle, players would have to use the right skills to deal damage to it. Perhaps using skills, or combinations of skills (an enfeeble followed by a melee attack) at the right time will move the fight forward in some way. It might prevent the boss from performing certain actions. For example, using a combination of ice attacks on it at a certain point could temporarily "freeze" and prevent it from spawning minions, or shut down a more devastating attack.

Perhaps using certain elemental attacks or abilities affect something about the environment around the boss. Perhaps they play a part in solving puzzles or challenges required to progress through the dungeon, finding hidden pathways, accessing otherwise unattainable loot, etc.

The possibilities are countless.

To make sure no class/job is excluded, they'd design each encounter to ensure that every class/job has an ability for the required element(s) by the time they're of the level required to participate in the content. For example, if a level 35 dungeon requires alternating/timed use of Fire and Ice, make sure each class/job has at least one skill/ability attuned to each of those elements by the time they reach level 35, and make sure no one skill/ability is objectively "better" than any other.

Voila... You have a system that opens up myriad possibilities for how to implement elements into things, without any one class/job having to be excluded.

It's very possible. It needn't be merely a "gimmick", and it would add the possibility for a lot more variety and depth to encounters. More tools in the tool box means more options to work with, means more variety in encounter design.

Now, if I can sit here and think up a bunch of ways to make it work - and certainly there are other options I didn't consider - then there's no one who's going to convince me that Yoshi-P and his team couldn't come up with something. That is, unless they have no imagination... which is absurd. To say "There's no imagination at SE" would be like saying "water isn't wet".

So again. Want to tell me "he just didn't find the concept appealing for his vision of ARR and chose not to include it", then fine. I think it's a poor decision that only takes away from and homogenizes the experience, but I can accept it as such.

But to say "it couldn't be balanced" or "it would just be a "one-time gimmick" is a weak cop-out. This is SE we're talking about here, not some brand-new wet-behind-the-ears, first-time game developer.

[Duuude007]

Holy wall of text, batman. You're lucky if more than a handful are willing to read your novella of accusations against Yoshida's design.

Or, better yet, take the damage factor out of it completely. Make the use of Elements more about utility. Using skills/abilities/spells with certain elemental attributes, alone or in certain combinations, will have certain effects on an enemy, or the environment, or both.

It might weaken the enemy's defense. It might provoke a certain response or action out of the enemy which can be exploited for more damage. It might weaken the enemy's attacks, either certain ones, or all in general. It might stun, slow or otherwise enfeeble the enemy.

Perhaps the enemy would change elements throughout a battle, players would have to use the right skills to deal damage to it. Perhaps using skills, or combinations of skills (an enfeeble followed by a melee attack) at the right time will move the fight forward in some way. It might prevent the boss from performing certain actions. For example, using a combination of ice attacks on it at a certain point could temporarily "freeze" and prevent it from spawning minions, or shut down a more devastating attack.

Perhaps using certain elemental attacks or abilities affect something about the environment around the boss. Perhaps they play a part in solving puzzles or challenges required to progress through the dungeon, finding hidden pathways, accessing otherwise unattainable loot, etc.

This was the only point in your eye bleeder that had some useful context, for which I ask the simple question:

How do you know these options haven't already been considered, or even implemented?

[LlenCoram]

I'm ok with them as long as it doesn't reach GW2 levels of "Don't stand in the circle. LOOK AT THE GROUND"

[Kairukun]

I'm ok with them as long as it doesn't reach GW2 levels of "Don't stand in the circle. LOOK AT THE GROUND"

Too late, they are in game.

[Duuude007]

It existed for Ifrit. It existed for Garuda.

It is a means to allow you to play the game more, and read the battle log less.

It is a proven, solid tool. It will exist for ARR.

Enough said.

[Drewbie]

well in the Letter From the Producer VII there is also another AOE ring look closely at around 1:20:17 Bam!!! green ring when using what looks like a item?

[ArkhamNative]

well in the Letter From the Producer VII there is also another AOE ring look closely at around 1:20:17 Bam!!! green ring when using what looks like a item?

Pretty sure that was just an ability. (Label said "Sprint".) Not AOE, just a whoosh-like effect that sort of radiates outward.

[Alhanelem]

i can't believe people are talking about AoE radius guides as if they're a stain of evil. It's a wonderful feature to have and doesn't in any way "scream low quality.' as long as it's done properly. Why should I have to guess at or feel around to figure out the actual radius of a spell or effect?

It's not like this plays the game for you- you still have to get out of the way if it's an enemy attack and you still have to move into the right position if it's a spell you're casting. It simply allows you to make a more informed decision- it doesn't reward laziness or poor play. With the sphere effects and enemy auras in FFXI, without third party tools you had to completely guess or feel around for the edge of the radius. You aren't even given the slightest clue. having to intentionally subject yourself to something in order to learn its radius is silly, as is blindly casting a spell to find out that yes, the AoE radius is that huge and caused you to hit 5 mobs you didn't intend to hit.

Just as it could be argued that you don't need this feature once you learn this stuff makes it useless to have, it can also be argued that since only one trial/error session is necessary, why not just eliminate that by having the range indicators? it's not like you're not going to learn it anyway. Let the people that like it turn it on and let the people who think it's ugly/ruins immersion/takes away "skill" turn it off. I guarantee you, you won't be able to tell the difference as to who's using it and who isn't.

I think that in this case, you are the one who is misunderstanding. The animation was there as well. The purpose for the ring is so that you can react to the enemy based on the enemy, rather than based on the battle log.

Your complaint equates to asking for them to permanently filter the Enemy's spells and aoe abilities from the battle log, because it gives us too much information.

Also, this. It's essentially a visual substitute for the battle log. Some people don't like spending most of the game looking at the bottom left of the screen reading all the text rather than looking at what their character is doing.